Veterans DAY! WOOO!

[Atla]

Want to really celebrate us?

Put prayer and the pledge of alliegence back in schools.

And a better weapons system, I'm a fan of the Robinson XCR in 6.8mm or .308.

[owly]

Veterans day is not about the one who died for our country but also the ones whom still serving......

Thankyou Atla and boz and Silverwolf

[Thomas]

Happy V-day to those still serving, and those of us who have already served. Hope it's a good one.

[Gerien]

Want to really celebrate us?

Keep religion out of the public sphere as our founding fathers intended.

fixed

Happy Veteran's Day to those who fight for our beliefs.

[TEVA]

Thank you Veterans for fighting for our freedoms.

[Nagash]

Want to really celebrate us?

Put prayer and the pledge of alliegence back in schools.

And a better weapons system, I'm a fan of the Robinson XCR in 6.8mm or .308.

"Us"?

[MoP]

He's doing moms now, he must be a veteran.

[Atla]

Um, I'm enlisted. Thus the 'us'.

;p

[Gerien]

[Atla]

http://www.historyplace.com/speeches/henry.htm

Sir, we are not weak, if we make a proper use of the means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. Three millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us.

The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable -- and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come!

It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, "Peace! Peace!" -- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death!

That's a good point Gerien. And open to some debate, that I really don't know enough to be able to do.

Our Founders were very Christian, and I posted that part of Patrick Henry's speech - cause I had it bookmarked, and because it shows what the attitude was at the time towards God.

If you can, Mr. Librarian. Find out when Prayer/Pledge of Alliegance was 'put' into School. (I suspect Prayer was always allowed - but there may be a date for the Pledge)

This requires more info and thought.

[Gerien]

Agreed, they were, but our country is not as Christian as it once was. To force us to be so is to deny the very principles of religious freedom our founders intended. Essentially, while we my have started out Christian, we also started out with the principle of not forcing religion on anyone. If today that means allowing non-religious as well as other religious types, then we are simply allowing for the growth of or basic principles as our founders hoped would happen.

The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855-1931), a Baptist minister, a Christian socialist, and the cousin of socialist utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850-1898). Harris' original "Pledge of Allegiance" was published in the September 8th issue of the popular children's magazine The Youth's Companion as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day, a celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's discovery of America. The event was conceived by James B. Upham, a marketer for the magazine, in a campaign to sell American flags and American nationalism to public schools.[2][3]

Bellamy's original Pledge read, "I Pledge Allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all."

The word "to" was inserted between "...my Flag and" and "the Republic" in October, 1892.[4]

The pledge was supposed to be quick and to the point. Bellamy designed it to be stated in 15 seconds. He had initially also considered using the words equality and fraternity[3] but decided not to.

After a proclamation by President Benjamin Harrison, the Pledge was first used in public schools on October 12, 1892 during Columbus Day observances. This date was also significant as it was the dedication day of the World's Columbian Exposition in Chicago, Illinois. Bellamy thought that the pledge itself and the involvement of children across the country would be a fine show of national solidarity.

In 1923 the National Flag Conference called for the words "my Flag " to be changed to "the Flag of the United States ". The reason given was to ensure that immigrants knew to which flag reference was being made. The words "of America " were added a year later. The U.S. Congress officially recognized the Pledge as the official national pledge on June 22, 1942.
Students pledging to the flag in with the Bellamy salute.

In 1940 the Supreme Court, in deciding the case of Minersville School District v. Gobitis, ruled that students in public schools should be compelled to swear the Pledge, even Jehovah's Witnesses like the Gobitases, who considered the flag salute to be idolatry. In the wake of this ruling, there was a rash of mob violence and intimidation against Jehovah's Witnesses. In 1943 the Supreme Court reversed its decision, ruling in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that "compulsory unification of opinion" violated the First Amendment.[5]

Swearing of the pledge is accompanied by a salute. An early version of the salute, adopted in 1892, was known as the Bellamy salute. It ended with the arm outstretched and the palm upwards. It eventually evolved to palm downward. Because of the similarity between the Bellamy salute and the Nazi salute, President Franklin D. Roosevelt instituted the hand-over-the-heart gesture as the salute to be rendered by civilians during the Pledge of Allegiance and the national anthem in the United States, instead of the Bellamy salute. This was done when Congress officially adopted the Flag Code on June 22, 1942.[6]

"Under God" was officially incorporated into the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954. The man to first initiate the addition of "under God" to the Pledge was Louis A. Bowman (1872-1959). The National Society of the Daughters of the American Revolution gave him an Award of Merit as the originator of this idea.[7][8] He spent his adult life in the Chicago area and was Chaplain of the Illinois Society of the Sons of the American Revolution. At a meeting on February 12, 1948, Lincoln's Birthday, he led the Society in swearing the Pledge with two words added, "under God." He stated that the words came from Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. He repeated his revised Pledge at other meetings.[8]

In 1951, the Knights of Columbus, the world's largest Catholic fraternal service organization, also began including the words, "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance.[9] In New York City, on April 30, 1951, the Board of Directors of the Knights of Columbus adopted a resolution to amend the text of their Pledge of Allegiance at the opening of each of the meetings of the 800 Fourth Degree Assemblies of the Knights of Columbus by addition of the words "under God" after the words "one nation." In the following two years, the idea spread throughout Knights of Columbus organizations nationwide. On August 21, 1952, the Supreme Council of the Knights of Columbus at its annual meeting adopted a resolution urging that the change be made universal and copies of this resolution were sent to the President, the Vice President (as Presiding Officer of the Senate) and the Speaker of the House of Representatives. The National Fraternal Congress meeting in Boston on September 24, 1952, adopted a similar resolution upon the recommendation of its President, Supreme Knight Luke E. Hart. Several State Fraternal Congresses acted likewise almost immediately thereafter. This campaign led to several official attempts to prompt Congress to adopt the Knights of Columbus’ policy for the entire nation. These attempts failed.

In 1952, Holger Christian Langmack wrote a letter to President Truman suggesting the inclusion of "under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance. Mr. Langmack was a Danish Philosopher and Educator who came to America in 1911. He was one of the originators of the Prayer Breakfast, and a religious leader in Washington, D.C. President Truman responded to Mr. Langmack, and agreed to meet him along with several others to discuss the inclusion of "under God" and also "love" just before "Liberty and Justice". This meeting took place in 1952.[citation needed]

Bills were introduced in Congress as early as 1953, when Representative Louis C. Rabaut of Michigan sponsored a resolution at the suggestion of a correspondent. It was a Presbyterian minister who made the difference in 1954 by preaching a sermon about Abraham Lincoln's Gettysburg Address. The minister was George MacPherson Docherty, a native of Scotland who was called to succeed Peter Marshall as pastor of the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church near the White House, where, in 1863, the same year as the address, Lincoln attended and even rented a pew. After Lincoln’s death, the pew that he rented became something of a national monument. It became customary for later United States presidents to attend services at the church and sit in the Lincoln pew on the Sunday closest to Lincoln’s birthday (February 12) each year.

As Lincoln Sunday (February 7, 1954) approached, Rev. Docherty knew not only that President Dwight Eisenhower was to be in attendance, but that it was more than just an annual ritual for him. While raised a Jehovah's Witness, Eisenhower had been baptized a Presbyterian just a year earlier. Docherty's sermon focused on the Gettysburg Address, drawing its title from the address, "A New Birth of Freedom."

Docherty’s message began with a comparison of the United States to ancient Sparta. Docherty noted that a traveler to ancient Sparta was amazed by the fact that the Spartans’ national might was not to be found in their walls, their shields, or their weapons, but in their spirit. Likewise, said Docherty, the might of the United States should not be thought of as emanating from their newly developed atomic weapons, but in their spirit, the "American way of life". In the remainder of the sermon Docherty sought to define as succinctly as possible the essence of the American spirit and way of life. To do so, Docherty appealed to those two words in Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address. According to Docherty, what has made the United States both unique and strong was her sense of being the nation that Lincoln described: a nation "under God." Docherty took the opportunity to tell a story of a conversation with his children about the Pledge of Allegiance. Docherty was troubled by the fact that it did not include any reference to God. Without such reference, Docherty insisted that the Pledge could apply to just about any nation. He felt that the pledge should reflect the American spirit and way of life as defined by Lincoln.

After the service concluded, Docherty had opportunity to converse with Eisenhower about the substance of the sermon. The President expressed his enthusiastic concurrence with Docherty’s view, and the very next day, Eisenhower had the wheels turning in Congress to incorporate Docherty’s suggestion into law. On February 8, 1954, Rep. Charles Oakman (R-Mich.), introduced a bill to that effect. On Lincoln’s birthday, four days later, Oakman made the following speech on the floor of the House:

Last Sunday, the President of the United States and his family occupied the pew where Abraham Lincoln worshipped. The pastor, the Reverend George M. Docherty, suggested the change in our Pledge of Allegiance that I have offered [as a bill]. Dr. Docherty delivered a wise sermon. He said that as a native of Scotland come to these shores he could appreciate the pledge as something more than a hollow verse taught to children for memory. I would like to quote from his words. He said, 'there was something missing in the pledge, and that which was missing was the characteristic and definitive factor in the American way of life.' Mr. Speaker, I think Mr. Docherty hit the nail square on the head.

Senator Homer Ferguson, in his report to the Congress on March 10, 1954, said, "The introduction of this joint resolution was suggested to me by a sermon given recently by the Rev. George M. Docherty, of Washington, D.C., who is pastor of the church at which Lincoln worshipped." This time Congress concurred with the Oakman-Ferguson resolution, and Eisenhower opted to sign the bill into law on Flag Day (June 14, 1954).

Docherty’s sermon was published by Harper & Bros. in New York in 1958 and President Eisenhower took the opportunity to write to Dr. Docherty with gratitude for the opportunity to once again read the sermon.

[owly]

That kept me interested

[Atla]

Good job Gerien.

Okay.

I think Prayer should be -allowed- in schools, but not forced on anyone. Which it never seems to be. I've never seen anyone stoned to death in this country for not bowing their head when a 'grace' was said before a Middle School football team ate a team luncheon.

Freedom OF Religion means the freedom to practice the religion you follow anywhere at anytime.

So... wouldn't that mean they should be allowed to practice in schools as well?

(My sister counter-argues that there should be Freedom FROM Religion. But she's going to hell anyways for being a liberal, so who cares? ;p)

------------------

Onto the Pledge.


Docherty noted that a traveler to ancient Sparta was amazed by the fact that the Spartans’ national might was not to be found in their walls, their shields, or their weapons, but in their spirit. Likewise, said Docherty, the might of the United States should not be thought of as emanating from their newly developed atomic weapons, but in their spirit, the "American way of life". In the remainder of the sermon Docherty sought to define as succinctly as possible the essence of the American spirit and way of life. To do so, Docherty appealed to those two words in Lincoln’s Gettysburg Address. According to Docherty, what has made the United States both unique and strong was her sense of being the nation that Lincoln described: a nation "under God."

He's right. I think saying a pledge like that helps instill a sense of patriotism, duty, and loyalty to our country. Something that is very much lacking today.

[Gerien]

Except that you are - by definition - talking about group prayer. If we have prayer in school, and I don't participate because I don't have the same belief system you do, I'm either singled out for not participating or I do participate in something I don't believe in. If we don't have prayer in school, you lose nothing because you still have your belief system AND the ability to pray anytime you want to because we have freedom of religion.

---


I have duty, patriotism, and loyalty to our country without needing to believe in God. Why should I have to say I do?

[edit]PS- your sister is right. [/edit]

[Gerien]

Here's a good example of what ends up happening when the majority religion (which you are) gets there way in terms of "religious freedoms" in school.

Indianapolis Schools Ban Atheism Websites
By Jesse Galef on November 14, 2009 in Atheism, Current Events, Religion.

by Jesse Galef

The Indianapolis Public School system has a policy to ban certain websites from being viewed at school. I certainly hated it when I was in high school (we found ways to bypass it if course) but it’s a reasonable idea. And the list of subjects banned is pretty straightforward: Pornography, Social Networking, Atheism and “Alternative Spirituality”, Games –

Wait, what? Sites on ‘alternative spirituality’ are banned? From the policy (pdf hosted on FFRF website):

“Sites that promote and provide information on religions such as Wicca, Witchcraft or Satanism. Occult Practices, atheistic views, voodoo rituals or other forms of mysticism are represented here… This category includes sites which discuss or deal with paranormal or unexplained events.” [emphasis mine]

Any site addressing LGBT issues or sexual identity is also banned – great idea for the kids going through confusing times, right?

Ok, first of all, I don’t know why “atheistic views” are in the same category as Satanism. But ignoring that idiocy, this is hugely discriminatory. “Normal” religious sites are allowed, but not the “scary minority” religious views. I could understand if all religious sites were banned but there’s no way to justify banning only some.

The Freedom From Religion Foundation is on the case, writing a letter to the superintendent and urging people to voice their concerns.

[Gerien]

[owly]

I have duty, patriotism, and loyalty to our country without needing to believe in God. Why should I have to say I do?

i can see people equally that have duty, patriotism, and loyalty to our country that could argue for pray in school i'd like to see both sides pitted together in a debate.

[Gerien]

i can see people equally that have duty, patriotism, and loyalty to our country that could argue for pray in school i'd like to see both sides pitted together in a debate.

I think that's what this is, Owly.

[owly]

i been reading.......

i read everything

[Nagash]

I'd rephrase it all, but have no time. Suffice to say that I agree with master Gerien. As usually. On all parts.