how come? (scum)

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how come? (scum)

Postby Horn » Thu May 09, 2013 4:48 pm

Why can you (if you only got "advantage" in scum) do unlimited attacks without the risk of revealing your kingdom number? Why couldnt it change to a 50% chance to reveal the kingdomname of the attacker after 3 attacks (or so)?

Why can you do unlimited attacks with scum when you have to declare war if you do "real" attacks?

Im just tired of rebuilding my country over and over again because someone destroys my "markets" and "groves" and i cant find out the name...

I had 10 scum-attacks which destroyed 4074 buildings (which at my current BRT) gonna take 226 turns to rebuilt... and i guess thats the reason for me to stop playing =)
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Re: how come? (scum)

Postby Aeyliea » Thu May 09, 2013 6:48 pm

Because if they made it so scum was something that could randomly be seen, it would be a devestating blow to the effectiveness of scum. The whole point of being a scummer is to NOT be seen. If someone is scumming you ceaselessly, I'd spend the time and energy to fort heavier scum and try to catch them.

To put it a different way, as to why not, if someone sends an army into your kingdom, you know who it is. If someone sorcs the everloving piss out of your realm, you know who it is. If someone sends spies to sabotage your realm, you wouldn't know who it was - you wouldn't in real life, either, as thatst he whole point of being a saboteur. All you can do is hire scum to catch them.

If you are in a guild, point it out to your GM that its happening and they can check the guild news tool to see if they can find any correlation between timing of attacks and seen or hung scout attempts.

And honestly, I do not know why someone would burn your realm unless you were at war - unless you have a ridiculous amount of temples or guildhalls to kingdom size. If they are doing it endlessly, I am sure an argument could be made to Kaz about player harrassment, which is not tolerated.
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Re: how come? (scum)

Postby Darnivan » Thu May 09, 2013 9:19 pm

10 scum attacks for 4k buildings would be the high guildhalls and temples with low protection scenario. That is playing with fire...and you got burned.
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Re: how come? (scum)

Postby Horn » Fri May 10, 2013 2:57 am

Aeyliea wrote:Because if they made it so scum was something that could randomly be seen, it would be a devestating blow to the effectiveness of scum. The whole point of being a scummer is to NOT be seen. If someone is scumming you ceaselessly, I'd spend the time and energy to fort heavier scum and try to catch them.

To put it a different way, as to why not, if someone sends an army into your kingdom, you know who it is. If someone sorcs the everloving piss out of your realm, you know who it is. If someone sends spies to sabotage your realm, you wouldn't know who it was - you wouldn't in real life, either, as thatst he whole point of being a saboteur. All you can do is hire scum to catch them.

If you are in a guild, point it out to your GM that its happening and they can check the guild news tool to see if they can find any correlation between timing of attacks and seen or hung scout attempts.

And honestly, I do not know why someone would burn your realm unless you were at war - unless you have a ridiculous amount of temples or guildhalls to kingdom size. If they are doing it endlessly, I am sure an argument could be made to Kaz about player harrassment, which is not tolerated.


I understand that it would be a devastating blow if they have a "random reveal" after 7 attack... but why do they have a risk that youre hurting yourself when doing sorc-attacks? Then you reveal yourself plus having the chance to hurt yourself? Backlash or what they call it... why dont they have it for scum?

I still get the point of scum is not to be seen but i just think its to strong. If you are superior in scum theres nothing that can stop you from harassing endless. If the door is open for scum - there is not change to protect yourself. Why dont you have any extra protection against scum? You got ambush, fog that proctect your country for a limited time, you can summon extra soldiers and have 5 shields for sorcery... but nothing to protect you from scum.

Why cant you make an ambush for scum?! Why cant you summon scum-soldiers with a "high defense scum attribute"? It can be during a limited time (24h)and cost ridiculous much as 20 turns...? ..And it could also triggers if you get several attacks in a row...

or just a protection so the scummers will pay more turns by attacking. Because if the scum-land has the same amount of land the cost of destroying doesnt increase after several attacks because the difference between the coutnry is almost the same. Not as for real attacks where its not worth it after a while because it cost to many turns.

10 scum attacks for 4k buildings would be the high guildhalls and temples with low protection scenario. That is playing with fire...and you got burned.


I dont think i was playing with fire. I have almost an ratio of the building at 1:1 (except BRT) and i fired all my soldiers and filled up almost my whole cap with scum. I trained them aswell (i had almost 25k elite thiefs)... just because i knew this attacks were comin up. The thing was that i tried to prepare for this attacks but it was still impossible: if the backdoor is open for scummers, then they got unlimited access to destroy your country. And as they kill your thiefs and lower the income its getting impossible to protect yourself.

I dont want you to think that im crying and complaining - of course i will use this advantage in the next game and do a scum-account and use this attack to set back enemies 200 turns in rebuild without revealing myself. Scum is the shit!

...i just asked for a way to prepare yourself for scummers. A tool that could help you if you knew that scum was comin up....like fog,summon scum or ambush.

Anyway, i had some random unprovoked army attacks during the beginning of this game and it makes the game interesting and triggers feelings for revenge and uncertainty. Thats great and thats why im playing this game. But as you get a higher rank you end up playing around the people who knows the game and the system and how to make the most out of it.

I wouldnt complain if this scum attack was followed by a massive army attack that stole all of my land but when its only set me back in turns because i have to rebuild my country... over and over again.

again - i know its the part of the game... and i also think that people that complain are pussies (yes im a pussy) and i dont think that you will (or even should) change the game just because of my complains. I dont even know why im spending energy and time on writing this... i understand that its a part of scum and the game =)

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Re: how come? (scum)

Postby Calen » Fri May 10, 2013 4:02 am

Thinking about it, there should be a counter for scummers using your own. Maybe an option that boosts your own scum defense for let's say a day but also lowers your offense. Like your own spies are more focused on protecting what is theirs then stealing others.
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Re: how come? (scum)

Postby Kaz » Fri May 10, 2013 8:38 am

I think the issue is partly that - as you just mentioned - you have a 1:1 building ratio. I assume that means that you're one of the kingdoms I recently noticed in the database with something on the lines of 5k Guildhalls, 5k Temples, 5k forts etc??

The reason why a scummer (or scummmers, it may well be multiple scummers) are burning you is because of the sheer number of those buildings. To put it bluntly you look like you're a threat. Those sorts of numbers put you up there (in comparable numbers) with the biggest kingdoms in the game.

5k forts is a huge amount when compared to the average kingdom holding 2k or so. To break those forts a kingdom is going to need to cast the top sorcery spell on you, essentially leaving you as rubble. The same can be said for sorcery buildings, most kingdoms would fail against 5k temples, so a burn would be essential. A 1:1 ratio is an unusual build strategy that allows for high levels of some of the danger buildings. However, it also comes at a risk because Guildhalls and Temples can be burnt.

Years ago when there was a much larger player-base, and players could afford to be more scum orientated, any kingdom found with more than 1k guildhalls was burned as a matter of course. The same could be said for any kingdom with dangerous levels of temples.

My kingdom (and I'd like to think that I'm one of the more efficient players, not just because I'm an admin) never goes above 10% guildhalls. When I reached 2750 guildhalls (which is higher than I would have used to go) I stopped building them, I also stopped building hovels at this point because I like to keep equal numbers. At this point I don't feel that I need the income boost. Forts become more expensive the more you hold, so I would probably not consider going over 8 to 10% of my land mass in forts. I build a lot of quarries (although less than you) but I also build a lot of barracks. Barracks essentially do the same as guildhalls, with the added bonus of also improving your ability to train troops and increasing the number of troops your kingdom can hold. Guildhalls increase income, Barracks reduce expenses.

If you took a kingdom with 5k of each building except quarries, and instead of rebuilding 2.5k burnt guildhalls you downsized 2.5k forts and built 5k barracks on those acres, you're kingdom would still be a threat. But it wouldn't attract as much scum attention. Also, you'd be able to hold more scum than currently, and you'd also be able to train that scum to elite in half the turns, without worrying about the expenses going so high that you run out of cash.

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On the other side of this conversation, making scummers declare war in order to attack was tried a few different ways over the years, but unfortunately all have led to unintended side effects (in addition to complaints about it making scum pointless).

When scumming another kingdom there are seen attempts and unseen.

The first attempt we tried, made 'seen' scum attacks trigger the same violence checks that war and sorcery do. After 9 seen attacks on different kingdoms, or 3 on the same kingdom they would be given the warmonger message and forced to declare. The unforeseen side effect was that that could be used to ensure that you only scouted kingdoms that would not see you. Unseen scouts went through as normal, seen scouts were stopped before they happened. Warmonger became a scout protection.

Another way we tried it was to force a declare only for certain more devastating scum actions, burns etc. However these could still be exploited in several ways, including using the failure message to safely run through the kingdom scrolls, looking for missing kingdoms in a guild war. Kingdoms you were at guild war with, would show up, others would give an error.

Because the way scumming works, any requirement to force kingdoms to declare war to scum is going to lead to exploitable side effects.

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Random chance to give away the number of an unseen scummer has also been suggested in the past, although that one always creates a lot of negative backlash. One thing to bear in mind is that a scummer is generally vulnerable to a war kingdom in exactly the same way that a war kingdom is vulnerable to a scum kingdom. If your troop cap is taken up by scum, then it's not being used for defensive troops. They can burn some of your buildings forcing you to waste turns, on the flip-side you can take all of their land.

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One thing that I am actively considering for a future game upgrade, is an extension to the amount of spells currently available. As it stands each faith has the same set of spells, however each faith has a different name for each of the spells. I have been considering how to make it so each spell name does a different thing, and all faiths have access to all spell names.

This would mean that there are 3x fog spells and 3x sorcery shield spells. Conveniently there are also 3 forms of attack, so I am considering making a fog spell for each screen and sorcery shields for each screen. Chances are you'd still be limited to the same maximum number of shields so you'd have to pick which shield to use, and you'd only be able to have one type of fog up at a time.

These would not give away the number of a scummer though, just slow down the process of being scummed.

Although, as it stands, I'm pretty sure fog already effects scum actions, and always has.
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Re: how come? (scum)

Postby Darnivan » Fri May 10, 2013 11:33 am

Indeed, High forts+high temples+high guildhalls+low (though you may not think is was low, but it was) barracks is playing with fire. High forts eats up your income with so low barracks so burned guildhalls crush the economy. That is why high guildhalls is considered a risky build strategy. Barracks have several advantages over guildhalls in that they can't be burned and they reduce the amount of turns use training troops.

You have described a very very risky build strategy. Most keep several times more barracks than the other buildings to reduce the danger of that risk.
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Re: how come? (scum)

Postby Reylan Talonspyre » Fri May 10, 2013 7:36 pm

Kaz wrote:Another way we tried it was to force a declare only for certain more devastating scum actions, burns etc. However these could still be exploited in several ways, including using the failure message to safely run through the kingdom scrolls, looking for missing kingdoms in a guild war. Kingdoms you were at guild war with, would show up, others would give an error.


I vaguely remember doing that.
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