Bounties changes - Turn Bounties? [Vote]

[Dauthi]

So Kaz suggested I start a poll for this, so I have.
Currently the bounties we have are Land, Gold, and Mana.

If you war kill someone, land is means nothing, as there is only 240ish left to claim. So this bounty is only use full to scum kill/sorc kill.

If you scum kill someone, their cash should have been looted by you or someone else already, so the gold one is only good if you war kill or sorc kill.

The mana one is only good if they been stock piling mana, and your a sorc person who uses yours. I've killed people in ages past with over 30k mana sitting around, and if I were to collect ALL the mana I currently can from my current kills I would have i'd have 77k mana.

The reason I'm breaking this down like this is to show that for the most part land, gold and mana bounties, don't encourage anyone to do killing. The benifits from using the turns to go all the way are minor compared to saving the turns to refort so you can protect yourselves. Currently I'm the only one who seems to play the, don't care about my realm need all the kills I can get, but if we turned on the turn bounty it would give you a reason to want to push for that kill. If they have like 75 turns in the bank and if you kill them you get them turns, thats 75 turns to refort with you didn't originally have.


In ages past, getting 5 kills would be enough to be king of the killers, and we'd be lucky to see more then a handfull with kills at all. This age for some reason there are way more kills. 19 in total so far and there has only been one war. Once restore kills are added that will increase the total number of kills seen in an age making it so having bounties that are worth wild even more important then before.

So please vote, if you feel inclined state the reason you made your choice so others can see why, and see if you thought of something they didn't.

[Aeropagitica]

I vote no in the current system.
If we remove NPCs from guilds, I would likely flop. But farming npc realms bears no threat of retribution for a turn reward that is capable of shifting the entire structure and flavor of the (guilds) game.

[Tara]

I vote yes, but with 1 alteration:

Have a set amount of turns to be claimed from the kill, say 30 for refort, but not however-many turns the kdm had at the time of the kill. That would be a pretty decent disparity if enough people started using it, some would get 150 turns, others might only get 10 if that's all the kdm had when it was killed and over the course of a week, see what I mean?

And given the argument is for refort, 30 turns is plenty in my mind. I want to talk to Dauthi more about it too but will do that in msgs rather than get the poll thread off-topic.

(Aero, at the rate NIR is goin maybe the npcs should have 1 day of retal lol!)

[Jokingjoe]

Tara, if you can't beat 'em, you could always join 'em

[Dauthi]

Aero,

If NPC's had a set turn amount of 30 or so, killing them would give you turns to refort, and allow them to reset for someone else to do the same. Which could be an enemy or a teammate. It makes it so you have consider do you want to reset the NPC for someone else and get a kill, or do you want to just leave it beaten down and not get the kill.


Tara,

I agree a set turn amount for kills would be ideal, especially for NPCS, but like gold, if you log in and your about to be killed and you have 150 turns, you can burn them all by inspiring so that no one can claim them. Not sure if its possible to do, but a compromise of 30 turns or half of the turns the player current has, which ever is higher. So it would be between 30 turns and 75 turns. This would give you turns to help refort or if you like me who never reforts give you turns enough to weaken another target.

-but- if everyone would prefer a set amount of turns, 30 is good in my opinion.

[riseendreev]

I vote yes but I am not enticed into Mana and Gold... Much better that if you can kill a kingdom a full turn shall be granted... more killing means more turns means more attacks...

This I think makes guilds game's a lot of twists especially when at war...

~just a thought.

[Reylan Talonspyre]

I vote yes.

It can be looked on either way, both negative and positive. No turn cap though, just take whatever turns are left by the target. This will make scumming very entertaining, while making war attacks less likely to get you the turns. It will increase the speed of the game.

The negatives being weighed in, the incentive for scum is outweighed by the need for land. I may fort against scum, but it means I am not forted to defend as easily against war. Scummers would gain the turns, but it is an ineffective strategy for those kingdoms playing those turns.

In reality, the consequences in a game of strategy such as this are unknown. We can all have preconceived notions, but until we implement it and try it out, who will know?

[The Minister of...]

...and we vote you get rid of the don't care option - if they don't care they don't get a vote, amirite!? (said to the instant cheers of a crowd that is heard yet unseen) - my apologies, they're just an echo.

This is linked on our banner so here we are - and we, meaning myself, tho we are often plural, vote in favor; more turns to counter the kills made by Goblins will be welcomed.

[Kaz]

...and we vote you get rid of the don't care option - if they don't care they don't get a vote, amirite!?

Changing the vote is not an option. If you change the options in a vote, all previous votes get wiped out.

[The Minister of...]

"bah!" as they say.

well then.

we hope the don't care votes don't care to get counted either

and also - hope this change is one "going forward" - as in, no turn bounties claimed for kills made prior to this possible code change

[Kaz]

This thread will stay open for the rest of this age, and then - based on the poll scores at the end of the age - may or may not be implemented.

I'll check for multi-votes (ie. using alts), and will also check for votes by non-players. Alt votes will be discounted (assuming a main voted), non-playing votes will count less than playing votes.

I don't tend to do mid-age changes unless they are bug fixes or really really needed, so it wont happen during this current age.

[Igneous]

I agree with aero.

[Fireslash]

No

~Fire

[Dauthi]

Fire,

Why?

And to the other 4 people who voted No, Why?

[Carlos Danger]

I voted no and thought I posted a response on why but here we go.

I voted no for several reasons. The first is guilds is and always has been a lower turn game, which allows for more back and forth and less devastating first strikes. Add the ability to stack up bounties for extra turns could definitely make for a stronger first strike, even if it was at 30 turns a kill.

I just don't see how it helps guilds. I don't think we need to have a benefit for getting kills. We used to kill kingdoms just to kill them, not to worry about bounties or titles. Most of the time now its a waste of turns and the idea of guilds is to have the highest ranking guild and faith not how many kingdoms a person killed. The benefits of killing a kingdom are two fold. Either they have to restore and are taken out of a war for a few days or they have to rebuild. That's the benefit. Its also gives war weak kingdoms a way to get land from a sorc or scum kill for the land bounty.

Lets be honest there are other games where killing is the thing and its an individual game. I like them but this is not that game and out of all of them this is the game I like the most. Your not requesting this to improve the game, your requesting this to give you an added benefit for something you already do and I don't see how it helps the guilds to any degree.

I will admit I am not a fan of you this age, but my answer would be no still even if someone else brought it up for a vote. Until I see a good argument towards why it helps the game it will stay the same.

If they were to do this, it should definitely be turned off for NPC's and should be only a small percentage of the persons turns, much like you only get a percentage of the total land.

[Dauthi]

Carlos,

First thank you for posting your opinion/stance. I'm sorry your not a fan of me this age, but it doesn't surprise me as we are not in the same faith. This tends to happen to anyone I'm not sharing a faith with and ends up at the end of my sword once or twice.

Now,

" the idea of guilds is to have the highest ranking guild and faith not how many kingdoms a person killed"

No, that is not true, atleast not completely.

This is a war game NOT a building game. Something most people seem to have forgotten. The purpose of this game is to make your faith the highest ranking BY beating down your enemy, not by out building them. In Solo you try to do it along with out the help of allies. IN Chaos/what ever it is called now you do it a squad format, but still alone for the most part. In Guilds, you work with your allies of any size to destroy your enemy, to make your faith the greatest. So killing your enemy is important, atleast it should be but in today's mindset its more about grabbing as much land you can so you can spend 2-3 weeks building.


"The benefits of killing a kingdom are two fold."

Currently there is no benefit of killing a kingdom. With restore in place, all you need to do is beat them down to a certain point, then leave them and they will take themselves out of the war. Honestly it is better NOT to kill because if you leave them at a weakend but not completely useless size, they will hesitate to hit the restore button because they might think they are still usefull somehow. This leaves you the attacker more turns to do the same to their allies. From the war of TRR and NIR, if I hadn't killed your realm would you have restored? Based on you post you were considering NOT restoring cause you thought you might be able to do damage, when in fact you most likely wouldn't have been able to do anything of serious note. So "they have to restore and are taken out of a war for a few days" is not a benefit for killing someone, it actually is a drawback. and "they have to rebuild" - LOL honestly who would rebuild if you had restore available to you? Someone who's restore point wasn't that great in the first place.

"Its also gives war weak kingdoms a way to get land from a sorc or scum kill for the land bounty."

THIS is a great argument for why we should have LAND bounty in the first place, but that doesn't argue against a turn bounty. Let say you had a turn bounty, and you scum kill someone, you can choose to have their land, OR their turns to finish off a scum kill of someone else. ... CHOICE. Imagen having it, imagen if you could CHOOSE to play differently, and have a ability to succeed or fail based on your choices. Instead of having to always play a certain way?

"Your not requesting this to improve the game, your requesting this to give you an added benefit for something you already do and I don't see how it helps the guilds to any degree."

I'm requesting it not to benefit me, or improve my game experience. I'm doing it so that I'd have a challenge for number of kills players have. Just like I randomly will post with how much mana/elan I have (15k in one realm and 125k in another), in an attempt to entice someone to come after me and actually KILL me. Having the extra turns to refort would mean NOTHING to me, as I don't refort, I dump land and save turns till max, and find a new target.

As far as helping guilds? Really? You don't see how it will help guilds to have a bounty that increases the amount of player interactions and cuts back on the amount of time someone has to spend tithing/building/tithing/building? How about this game is the MOST fun when people are actually playing it. When people are actually interacting with each other, when WARS happen. This game is the most enjoyable. We lost MORE players to inactivity due to lack of interest then we do because someone was wronged or got attacked in a shitty manner. If you don't see the benefit of it then your blind.


" it should definitely be turned off for NPC's and should be only a small percentage of the persons turns,"

THIS I 100% agree with. NPCS kills shouldn't give you a bounty in anyway, NPCS's should be used to farm during peace times, not be used as ways to stack bounties.

[Carlos Danger]

I don't believe I closed the tab before finishing my post. I need to remember to edit in notepad demmit.

No, that is not true, atleast not completely.

This is a war game NOT a building game. Something most people seem to have forgotten. The purpose of this game is to make your faith the highest ranking BY beating down your enemy, not by out building them. In Solo you try to do it along with out the help of allies. IN Chaos/what ever it is called now you do it a squad format, but still alone for the most part. In Guilds, you work with your allies of any size to destroy your enemy, to make your faith the greatest. So killing your enemy is important, atleast it should be but in today's mindset its more about grabbing as much land you can so you can spend 2-3 weeks building.

I don't disagree but I don't agree. Its building management/war/politics game or at least it used to be. The tally is being the faith with the largest NW. If the point system was determined by how many heathens you killed it would be different but its about being the biggest. You need to use your turns effectively because of the low turn rate to ensure your not brought down and part of that is not wasting turns on a kill.

Currently there is no benefit of killing a kingdom. With restore in place, all you need to do is beat them down to a certain point, then leave them and they will take themselves out of the war. Honestly it is better NOT to kill because if you leave them at a weakend but not completely useless size, they will hesitate to hit the restore button because they might think they are still usefull somehow. This leaves you the attacker more turns to do the same to their allies. From the war of TRR and NIR, if I hadn't killed your realm would you have restored? Based on you post you were considering NOT restoring cause you thought you might be able to do damage, when in fact you most likely wouldn't have been able to do anything of serious note. So "they have to restore and are taken out of a war for a few days" is not a benefit for killing someone, it actually is a drawback. and "they have to rebuild" - LOL honestly who would rebuild if you had restore available to you? Someone who's restore point wasn't that great in the first place.

I wasn't planning on restoring. I was annoyed and posted that because I just lost a sidhe with plenty of elan and full turns because I couldn't get on Saturday. While you may not agree I could have used that very effectively and then restored if things had become worse. We have smaller kingdoms still doing more. I don't like being taken out of war because I don't want to build, I want to war and find ways to be effective, even when small. I have to be honest I thought there was a steeper penalty on restoring when you were killed but reading the change log I am wrong about that. It still forces someone out of the war one way or another but perhaps there is not much benefit otherwise.

THIS is a great argument for why we should have LAND bounty in the first place, but that doesn't argue against a turn bounty. Let say you had a turn bounty, and you scum kill someone, you can choose to have their land, OR their turns to finish off a scum kill of someone else. ... CHOICE. Imagen having it, imagen if you could CHOOSE to play differently, and have a ability to succeed or fail based on your choices. Instead of having to always play a certain way?

I mostly said this to show the one positive of the bounty system I see, as I am not a fan of it in the guilds game. I would prefer it removed there, but I would also get rid of restore and npcs if it were up to me.

I'm requesting it not to benefit me, or improve my game experience. I'm doing it so that I'd have a challenge for number of kills players have. Just like I randomly will post with how much mana/elan I have (15k in one realm and 125k in another), in an attempt to entice someone to come after me and actually KILL me. Having the extra turns to refort would mean NOTHING to me, as I don't refort, I dump land and save turns till max, and find a new target.

Maybe its just me but this is not what guilds is about in my opinion. You can play the other games for this specific experience as killing happens all the time. Your supposed to be working together as a faith to win the age, not competing with everyone to see how many kills you can get. You could challenge yourself a bit more by trying to take down larger opponents with defense, or seeing how long you can last in a war of some kind. I am not sure challenge if what your really looking for.

As far as helping guilds? Really? You don't see how it will help guilds to have a bounty that increases the amount of player interactions and cuts back on the amount of time someone has to spend tithing/building/tithing/building? How about this game is the MOST fun when people are actually playing it. When people are actually interacting with each other, when WARS happen. This game is the most enjoyable. We lost MORE players to inactivity due to lack of interest then we do because someone was wronged or got attacked in a shitty manner. If you don't see the benefit of it then your blind.

I agree with you that being wrong or destroyed is not the reason people aren't playing. But I also don't think the turns are an issue because the other games would all be filled and guilds would be the low man. My favorite parts of this game are the interactions with my guild mates, the nervous energy of planning a war strike or when you are able to take down much larger opponent. Even interacting on the boards is fun for me and always has been. The game is just a part of that and while turns might give us some more to do I don't think it will improve the guilds experience. Perhaps its just going to be a nostalgic thing for some of us and eventually die again. There are new people who do join occasionally and I think that this game can be a fit for many people, its just getting them involved addicted like the rest of us. I am not just blind, we just play for different reasons, and turns won't improve it for me.

THIS I 100% agree with. NPCS kills shouldn't give you a bounty in anyway, NPCS's should be used to farm during peace times, not be used as ways to stack bounties.

[/quote]

Well at least we can agree on something:)

[Jokingjoe]

How about a compromise? Leave the "turn bounty" off in guilds, but perhaps award a small bonus of turns immediately, like when killing a PC in Conquest. You could get your 20-30 turns bonus (for your refortifying, whatever) but it wouldn't be something you could save up for a devastating assault later.

[Darnivan]

I voted no because the bounty system is pretty bad for game balance due to how you can save bounties. I'm not against encouraging kills, but being able to save the bounties and use them in a war later just overly complicates things if you have to check what bounties the enemies have when planing a war and include them in the stat calculations...

If bounties had to be claimed immediately or within a few days or they would be lost then they would be fine but as they are I don't like them.