Learning From The Past

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Learning From The Past

Postby Kaz » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:34 pm

I have just split this out of the comments thread.


Kaz wrote:
Shredman wrote:but the days of 100+ member guilds are over i would think.


I feel that I have to type this over and over again.

This is a NEW enterprise, that happens to be utilising an old game framework.

At least to start with, can we try and forget about the history, and concentrate on the new start.
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Re: - In responce to SD thread to avoid Derailing -

Postby Nagash » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:55 pm

Yes. STOP LOOKING BACK.

V, you didn't spend any hours here years ago, as the place didn't exist anymore.

This is NOT evernight.
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Re: - In responce to SD thread to avoid Derailing -

Postby Venus » Thu Oct 08, 2009 3:58 pm

jesus christ

fine

ive never been here
in fact, pretend im not:>

on the same note, im also not a three boobed man pirate alien am i?

u cant have it both ways

its ok when u guys refer to shit from the other boards
heaven fucking forbid that I say something that im pulling from genuine gm experience and game play in a game that appears it will be remarkably similar to the other one

im tired of u yelling its not the same game at me in threads

then turning around and posting shit about me from the other boards

god damn im goin back to the fucking sun.
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Re: - In responce to SD thread to avoid Derailing -

Postby Maverick » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:02 pm

ARGH can pirate aliens speak English?
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Re: - In responce to SD thread to avoid Derailing -

Postby Kaz » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:06 pm

V hun,

I didn't yell at you, I quoted Shred's comment about the days of 100+ member guilds being over.

Your GM experience is just as valid, if a GM came over from Tribal Wars (assuming they have GMs) or somewhere else, their experience of leadership would be just as valid.

As for the three boobed thing. I asked you if you wanted me to put a foot down on that, I am still more than happy to do so.

History obviously has a place here, just not yet.
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Re: - In responce to SD thread to avoid Derailing -

Postby Venus » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:10 pm

i was talking to nagash
not really u kaz

sojmeone else did the same in another thread

and no, it really donest bother me kaz

if i was ugly fat or actually had three boobs and looked like an alien it might bother me
but it doesnt

i simply used it to make the point that its ok for everyone to post the shit from the other boards about that, but not for me to pull from that game/experience.

whatever
ill just stop suggesting and let u guys flesh it out
im probably not gonna play anyway so its not for me to have a voice in
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Re: - In responce to SD thread to avoid Derailing -

Postby Kaz » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:18 pm

Of course you are entitled to a voice. You made the decision to sign up on these boards, which gives you your right to make your opinion known.

When it comes down to it, my issue is not with people remembering old games and good times, as long as they are in the correct context. It's with posts that infer that this is just another continuation of the same old thing.

Yes we all have history together. Just not here. Here is new.
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Re: - In responce to SD thread to avoid Derailing -

Postby Maverick » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:36 pm

When I play I am not going to act as if the past didnt happen. The past will give context for the present and the future.

I personally am going to build on the story, but I think everyone should be allowed to do what they want.
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Re: - In responce to SD thread to avoid Derailing -

Postby Nagash » Thu Oct 08, 2009 4:57 pm

A context it should be, but nothing more than a context. A referential perspective perhaps. But it is no use to keep referring to times when one did this and back when one did that in the fashion that happened in this thread.

As the game and the referrals to it on the boards were an (if not the) essential part of why evernight bled to death. Let's make sure that doesn't happen again, shall we?

In my opinion board spam is in another league, as it is not and was not something to annoy anyone. In fact, in my opinion the banter in Comments and the silly threads in Unity were what kept TB going for all that time.

That is the context we come from. That is the persepctive we brought along. Let's not dwell on it and move on, OK?
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Re: - In responce to SD thread to avoid Derailing -

Postby Maverick » Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:16 pm

You can make different arguments for why people left over the years, you can make the same arguments for why they stayed.

As long as this posting name is associated with me the person, there is just no way to say "Oh this is new Maverick." There are going to be people that hate me, people that love me and people who dont care, but they arent going to suddenly forget the past.

Imo it is the myths and legends that bring people back, because those who have put time into the game want to leave their mark.

At the end of the day, it wasnt the boards that made people leave.
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Re: - In responce to SD thread to avoid Derailing -

Postby Nagash » Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:56 pm

Yes, we are the same people. But we have matured over time. In a way you are a new Mav and I am a new Nag. Or at least I hope so, when comparing our personalities of now with those of over ten years ago.

It has been emphasised from the very beginning that this is a new, fresh start. History has a place there, but it's a small place. Talk of 100+ guilds and of warchats long past are no part of it. Guilds and their policies are, and perhaps that sometimes needs to be put in its historical perspective. That makes for a gray area, but that is how I interpret it.

Otherwise we might as well have stayed at evernight.com and muddled on like we have for years. I say: no thanks.

So as I have said before: stop dwelling on the past, and give the crew's ideas a chance before you shoot them down. Experience it and go with the flow of the fresh start. I think you'll find you'll like it.
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Re: - In responce to SD thread to avoid Derailing -

Postby Maverick » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:14 pm

I think of it more like the Lord of the Rings and the talk of the battles against Sauron. They are whispers in the wind, what give us context and what give our characters meaning.

Great kingdoms, great guilds, great legacies that all have decayed and been destroyed over time. But that doesnt mean we cant reference them, that we have to act as if it never happened.

We have 10 years of back story that can be weaved into our history. It just would make no sense to completely disconnect from all of that.

And I dont believe that we had the option of staying at evernight.com.
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Re: The Past

Postby Kaz » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:30 pm

Mav,

You are quite right when it comes to back story. That is a part of our history that should be kept.

But I think you are wrong when you said it was not the boards that made people leave.

The message boards are the visible side of a website.

Here are a few reviews from mpogd.com. We can pretend that they were made by people who had a predesposed ant-evernight nature. But whether or not that's the case, we cannot deny the rings of truth.

In all the negative reviews on MPoGD the same things come up over and over again.

4/3/2008 wrote:Let's dispense with the blatant lies posted by the game's tiny, sycophantic core userbase that desperately trolls this site for new users on a monthly basis and yet fails every time. It should tell you something when your game fails to generate interest despite repeated spamming that has been ongoing for years.

This game is only useful if your computer is from the last century. It is not worth a 10, 9, 8, or any rating that might remotely qualify it as a valid use of your spare time. The game itself, despite all claims to the contrary, is still an unsophisticated and extremely redundant text-based kingdom-building schmoz done better by numerous other companies. If you want to waste time at work, there are thousands of better alternatives. If you want a free online MMO, there are also many superior alternatives. The fact that most of the active "community" members refuse to play the game on a regular basis is an important point, which brings us to...

The "community" itself. To my knowledge, the community has always been tiny, extremely insular, and exceedingly hostile and unwelcoming. Despite making repeated pushes for new members via spamming MPOGD, the administration and many of the established members are openly antagonistic to new and unfamiliar members of the community, especially anyone whose viewpoints even remotely disagree with the popular right-wing reactionary screed. This completely negates their intentions of publicizing the community and primarily serves to keep this group very single-minded, bitter, and unwelcoming to anyone not a part of the "angry nerd redneck" inner circle. Roleplaying, which was once a key draw, has been reduced to a sad parody as all the best creative minds have since left for greener pastures. Primary topics of discussion are the comical woes of middle-aged dingbat housewives, far right-wing ideology, and mindless bullshit.

If you love playing redundant, horribly outdated games with no graphics with a crowd of gun nuts and anime-loving social rejects, you'll love Canon. Otherwise, don't bother, and don't fall for the lies of people who will tell you how great it is until you get there, and then skewer you while laughing.


3/13/2008 wrote:-Unoriginal, outdated, boring text game
-Toxic "community" boards
-Hostile filthy-mouthed Admin

Admin & longtime players frequenting the game's boards and in-game communications are extremely hostile to new comers.

Admin enjoys arbitrarily attacking players on the boards with withering verbal assaults, unleashing some of the most juvenile and filthiest tirades sometimes bad enough to make a sailor blush.

The "community" they've created seems to get off on joining in the 'fun', dogpiling/adding insult to injury to any unfortunate targets of their Admin's outbursts seemingly to gain the favor of Admin.

The small clique-ish player base dwells on real life politics & current affairs (often sounding like a bunch of gun toting rednecks) and heated mindless arguments abound, which must make the likes of their admin proud.

Actual game play is unoriginal, dated (rip-off of a text turn-based game from the 90s) and very boring. In-game 'politics' amount to nothing more than kissing Admins' posterior and posting accordingly on the boards.

Can't think of any redeeming aspects of this game - its a waste of time.


9/20/2004 wrote:- No serious innovation in gameplay in several years has rendered the game largely obsolete in a progressive marketplace.
- The administration, by and large, is extremely unfriendly, (not actively indifferent as so many administrators are, but actually downright unfriendly), to segments of the player population.
- The player base is now too small to derive much enjoyment from the game, especially considering how entrenched most of the alliances are. There is simply no place for a new player to start.
- The community is hostile to new players in general.
- There is a significant lack of in-game play options.
- Roleplay, once this community's strong suit, has deteriorated to the point that it is no longer relevant, though the administrators continue to hail it as a drawing point.


11/5/2001 wrote:Although the mechanics of Canon are quite good, it is the gaming environment which contributes to the isses with this game.

1.) The game developers and staff are highly clique-ish and do not tolerate any dissent or criticism within the game. Even if comments are constructive, they are generally dismissed. Players who want the best game experiences possible and who do want the most for their $1 fee are almost unilaterally ignored. If pressed by complaints from one person, he or she is usually banned. And if not, the game developers will usually humiliate and condemn them very publically on the game boards.

2.) The developers very much see Canon as "their" game. They have no difficulty in taking the game off-line at inconvenient times with or without prior notice. They are very punitive to players when it comes to difficulties they are having with the game. Requests for help or comments are almost always treated with derision and as a "waste of time."

3.) The community is extremely exclusive and unwelcoming to outsiders. Newbies are, as a rule, viciously flamed when they make a mistake instead of being guided to resources to answer their questions. Established players rarely take the time to mentor new players and the "New Player Area" forum is generally sparsely posted in. The "Comments" forum where people can post IRL is often the scene of some very disturbing displays of bigotry and hatred. While the developers and staff encourage free speech in that forum, there is only a certain range of ideas which one can discuss. Rather than having a reasoned discussion on an issue, people are often ridiculed and told they are stupid...by developers and staff! In essence, Canon is not an open and welcoming community.

4.) The game is not reliable. Since August, the game server has been down more often than it has been up. This creates obvious difficulties and playing and maintaining a kingdom.

In conclusion, Canon can be a good game if you are willing to tow the party line and do exactly as you are told. For those actually looking to have fun and interact with a diverse range of people, you'd be better off going elsewhere.
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Re: The Past

Postby Maverick » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:08 pm

Kaz,

What you will notice is that none of those comments are directed about fighting over histories, they are directed about the attitude of the player base towards "new players". I can say with 100% certainty that the game was never more obnoxious or hateful as the day I started playing.

To put it into perspective I can only recall my very first post on the Braggarts Hall boards.

I had just joined the guild TBH (a brand new guild formed that age), and I decided to post about how great TBH was going to be. I was immediately flamed by Ander Corl, one of the high ranking players of Cabal.

Why was I flamed?

I had no icon, there were numbers in my name and I was "new."

Over the last 10 years I have done everything in my power to try and go after the veteran clique atmosphere that has permeated this game. You can ask anyone that has played with or for me, I for the most part of my career accepted all applications from every player. I did not attack new players and even went so far as to protect new players with Sakkarra back in comments.

The problem is that in many ways the administration was adding to this negativity. Look at the comments:

First comment:

the administration and many of the established members are openly antagonistic to new and unfamiliar members of the community, especially anyone whose viewpoints even remotely disagree with the popular right-wing reactionary screed.


Primary topics of discussion are the comical woes of middle-aged dingbat housewives, far right-wing ideology, and mindless bullshit.


Second comment:

The small clique-ish player base dwells on real life politics & current affairs (often sounding like a bunch of gun toting rednecks) and heated mindless arguments abound, which must make the likes of their admin proud.


Third Comment:

The administration, by and large, is extremely unfriendly, (not actively indifferent as so many administrators are, but actually downright unfriendly), to segments of the player population.


Fourth Comment:

The "Comments" forum where people can post IRL is often the scene of some very disturbing displays of bigotry and hatred. While the developers and staff encourage free speech in that forum, there is only a certain range of ideas which one can discuss. Rather than having a reasoned discussion on an issue, people are often ridiculed and told they are stupid...by developers and staff! In essence, Canon is not an open and welcoming community.


All of those are the truth and its the reason why I lost all of my titles at Evernight. I was not, nor will ever be some one who blindly follows or some one who goes out of their way to attack new players or people with different ideas. The problem was that the attitude permeated from the top down. Administrators had attack dogs who could get away with anything (especially in comments threads if they were right winged) at the expense of the overall enjoyment of the community.

If you notice, very few of the comments are actually directed about the Guilds game or posting about the game.

This is why I tried to always stand up to the bullshit, because in the end that is what drives people way.

I can count on one hand the amount of respected players who spoke out against the powers that be. Most of them did not last, most of them were banned, ridiculed and driven away. Many were personal vendettas, having nothing to do with the game. I always felt that one day it would be my turn, I would be the one who was being pushed out the door, my name erased from memory.

Why it never happened, Im not sure. But its not about the history of guilds, or the history of the wars.

It was about certain attitudes of "we are smarter than you" and when you disagreed you were humiliated.

You can find the threads, some times 5-10 people attacking 1 poster because they did not follow the same political beliefs. Youll find a small minority who tried to turn the tide, but it was ineffective.

With the current group of administrators I am hard pressed to believe that we are going to experience the same problems. Which is why from an outside perspective it is a good idea that we are distancing ourselves from the past, but at the same time the core players are going to return because of the memories. Not because we are all of a sudden friendlier.
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Re: - In responce to SD thread to avoid Derailing -

Postby Gerien » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:31 pm

Maverick wrote:You can make different arguments for why people left over the years, you can make the same arguments for why they stayed.

As long as this posting name is associated with me the person, there is just no way to say "Oh this is new Maverick." There are going to be people that hate me, people that love me and people who dont care, but they arent going to suddenly forget the past.

Imo it is the myths and legends that bring people back, because those who have put time into the game want to leave their mark.

At the end of the day, it wasnt the boards that made people leave.

I don't think "new" means "new personalities" Mav. We'er all the same (somewhat older, hopefully wiser) people we always were. However, it's worth overstressing for safety's sake that we not bring those personalities' foibles and historical drama with us into the new game.

It's kind of like when you quit smoking. you keep telling yourself over and over and over "I will not smoke" even though you know intellectually that you've quit because the constant reminder makes it sink in so you can stop telling yourself and not have to worry about remembering it.

...
Okay, that metaphor was a stretch, but I quit two weeks ago so work with me here. :lol:
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Re: - In responce to SD thread to avoid Derailing -

Postby Nagash » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:32 pm

Maverick wrote:I think of it more like the Lord of the Rings and the talk of the battles against Sauron. They are whispers in the wind, what give us context and what give our characters meaning.

Great kingdoms, great guilds, great legacies that all have decayed and been destroyed over time. But that doesnt mean we cant reference them, that we have to act as if it never happened.

We have 10 years of back story that can be weaved into our history. It just would make no sense to completely disconnect from all of that.



Then we agree. 'Whispers in the wind' catches it nicely. But please let it be little to nothing more than whispers which colour our characters.
The Venus and Shred "mine's bigger, I be the better GM" discussion is more like a scream from the history books. Let that shit rest.
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Re: - In responce to SD thread to avoid Derailing -

Postby Dyvim Tvar » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:44 pm

Venus wrote:and no, it really donest bother me kaz


Man, it bothers me. That vein of "humour" has been tapped more times than Courtney Love. It's more than enough to make me wish that the original conversation with Bundes had never occured.
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Re: The Past

Postby Kaz » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:51 pm

Mav, you are quite right that .. how to say .. the historic staff team may have helped create those reviews.

But the sad fact is that not ALL of those reviews were made during the past. At least one was made during my time in Administration.

The legacy of that past will never leave us until we force it out, and it carried through to the boards.

The flames you mentioned, used to be intelligent well written flames by people that had an original range of vocab due to roleplaying. That has not been the case for years. Flames became unoriginal... damn as Dyvim just pointed out, even the jokes have become unoriginal.

Those quotes do not completely leave the game untouched.

Mixed Reviews wrote:...Although the mechanics of Canon are quite good, it is the gaming environment which contributes to the isses with this game...

...The player base is now too small to derive much enjoyment from the game, especially considering how entrenched most of the alliances are. There is simply no place for a new player to start...

...In-game 'politics' amount to nothing more than kissing Admins' posterior and posting accordingly on the boards...

...This completely negates their intentions of publicizing the community and primarily serves to keep this group very single-minded, bitter, and unwelcoming...

...Roleplaying, which was once a key draw, has been reduced to a sad parody as all the best creative minds have since left for greener pastures...


We all know a hell of a lot of players that left for reasons totally unrelated to right wing views in comments.

The Guilds / Unity game forums, were hot beds of whining about downhits, politics as we all remember and love, became a joke. Everyone wanted to be the 'bad guild', war became elite IRC battles rather than sedate banner driven fun.

For years, Monarchy has been remembered with rose tinted glasses. People like to remember a glorious golden day, when the boards were welcoming and people had fun rather than burned out.

True or not, that is the past we need to strive to live up to.

When we suggest forgetting the past, we are trying to break away from the damage that the troubled years of Evernight did to what was once a hugely popular online game.
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Re: Breaking Away From The Past

Postby Gerien » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:00 pm

Mav, you are quite right that .. how to say .. the historic staff team may have helped create those reviews.

Now THAT'S politic!

And yes, the game IS old and stale (sorry - my opinion) and very much a '90s era play style. It was the combination of board/game/RP that made Monarchy/early Canon something worth playing. I do like the post about a "progressive environment", for although that oversimplifies game mechanics, it does show that there needs to be someting special here in order for a text based, very slow moving, browser game to succeed.

As for the right wing comments, you know I'm pretty much in agreement with the MPOGD posts. Face it, this IS a VERY right wing community. Not all, but those of us who aren't are few and far between and have been getting even more minimal over the years.
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Re: The Past

Postby Teanos » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:05 pm

I'm not really sure what we are deciding here or debating. The past, of what? The game, our past, or the boards?

The game? can't deny the past there. The storyline we are using was written twelve years ago, and the full storyline of this place is rich with the history written by players and administrators of the past. To say that this is a new place using the old storyline is a discredit to all the people who had something to do with that - both good and bad.

Our past? can't deny the past there either. Those who spent large amounts of time GMing and leading players are what kept people playing. They made the game what it was both during the height of Monarchy and through some rather bad times up until now. That should not be wiped away or forgotten because it is apart of the game and the history.

The boards? I don't even think we can deny the past here either. Braggarts Hall was a very popular place and during the height of Monarchy it is what kept alot of us posting and playing. The flame wars, the roleplay, the poetry - all of that helpd shape us into the people we are today. Interacting with thousands of people all over the world introduced me personally to so many different aspects of life that I would be a fool to try and deny.

But, there was a bad side to the boards as well. It started in BH, carried over to TB, and was most noticble as the playerbase declined. Those reviews pretty much nail it. When you have 20,000 people playing and posting - you can be mean to a handful. If 10 people quit, who cares? It means very little. But when you go from 20,000 people, to 1,000 people, to 500 people, to less then 100, loosing players means something. As time passes and those people who are leaving are people who have dedicated time, effort, storylines, and apart of them to the site, that does make an effect.

I can't deny any of those reviews, while I know the people who posted them mostly do it because they had some personal vendetta against those who ran the place, they are still very truthful. The past cannot just be full of the good things, we have to include and acknowledge the bad as well.

What we are trying to do here is not pretend the past didn't happen, or ask people to forget the past twelve years of their internet life and identity here. That would be foolish.

But we are trying to learn from the past, and not repeat some of the mistakes that were made. If we can do that, its a chance to build a community that can embrace the past for what it was both good and bad, but also not dwell on it and let this place become just another repeat.
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