[Tribunal Complete]Tribunal (Good Idea or Bad Idea)
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[Tribunal Complete]Tribunal (Good Idea or Bad Idea)
[edit] After speaking with V, I have split this out of the racial insults thread ~ Kaz
you know, i held my tongue when the tribunal thing was thought up, but this right here is a prime example of why it should not be at all.
we have a few moderators and admin, it should be left up to them to decide what should be edited and what should not. this is nothing more than asking for others to give an opinion thats going to start a fight and more bad feelings
edit what you feel should be edited, all of you agree on it, and move on
discussing it will only lead to bad feelings between posters
there was nothing at all wrong with the way the boards were edited in the first place for years and years
yes im referring to bh tb etc diff boards and diff games, sorry but it has to be done
but just my two cents here, since this is suppose to be a forum where we can post our opinions
this whole tribunal is a BAD BAD BAD idea
same as that council thing is maxim was
same reason the one suggested for guilds several times didnt work
this is just gonna lead to really really bad feelings and issues
u guys may not care, but u should really get rid of this now. its not gonna work.
now im goin back to the beach! have fun
also, as a p.s. atla is atla. just like owly is owly. he is who he is
this game/people have always swore that this was a place u could be who u are. let us all be who we are, edit if needed, but discussing it all is gonna bring up even more issues
this is just bad
ive got a bad feeling about this.
you know, i held my tongue when the tribunal thing was thought up, but this right here is a prime example of why it should not be at all.
we have a few moderators and admin, it should be left up to them to decide what should be edited and what should not. this is nothing more than asking for others to give an opinion thats going to start a fight and more bad feelings
edit what you feel should be edited, all of you agree on it, and move on
discussing it will only lead to bad feelings between posters
there was nothing at all wrong with the way the boards were edited in the first place for years and years
yes im referring to bh tb etc diff boards and diff games, sorry but it has to be done
but just my two cents here, since this is suppose to be a forum where we can post our opinions
this whole tribunal is a BAD BAD BAD idea
same as that council thing is maxim was
same reason the one suggested for guilds several times didnt work
this is just gonna lead to really really bad feelings and issues
u guys may not care, but u should really get rid of this now. its not gonna work.
now im goin back to the beach! have fun
also, as a p.s. atla is atla. just like owly is owly. he is who he is
this game/people have always swore that this was a place u could be who u are. let us all be who we are, edit if needed, but discussing it all is gonna bring up even more issues
this is just bad
ive got a bad feeling about this.
Wow do i need a new signature or what. suggestions??
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- Kaz
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Re: [Open Tribunal] Tribunal
The whole idea of having Monarchs' Glen and Tempers Ball running at the same time, was that there were things about Tempers Ball that drove me away from the community.
I have no wish to administrate a game in a rebranded version of the same thing. This is a new start, and will be different from the past. Change is needed from the very outset, and Tribunal seems to me, the best way to acheive a site that I want to spend my time improving.
This forum has already seen some positive results, for example, Atla's second post covered the original points from his edited original, but without the emotion attached to the original.
However, this forum is all about promoting positive discourse, so lets see where this discussion goes.
I have no wish to administrate a game in a rebranded version of the same thing. This is a new start, and will be different from the past. Change is needed from the very outset, and Tribunal seems to me, the best way to acheive a site that I want to spend my time improving.
This forum has already seen some positive results, for example, Atla's second post covered the original points from his edited original, but without the emotion attached to the original.
However, this forum is all about promoting positive discourse, so lets see where this discussion goes.
Programming is 10% science, 25% ingenuity and 65% getting the ingenuity to work with the science
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Re: [Open Tribunal] Tribunal
I made the mistake of bringing emotion into a Tribunal thread. That said, I knew to be rational in my post. Tribunal is, to me, a good way to step away from what's getting to me and say to the community at large, "This is what I think about something that bothers me and I believe effects the entire community. What does everyone else think?" I see nothing but value in being able to have rational discussion about what we do or do not see as issues separate from the emotions that are inherent in so many of our threads.
And I never even got my own damn posting title!
Re: [Open Tribunal] Tribunal
our emotions are what makes this place and these threads what they are
/shrugs
by all means, if im outvoted. im outvoted
just wanted my opinion out there.
/shrugs
by all means, if im outvoted. im outvoted
just wanted my opinion out there.
Wow do i need a new signature or what. suggestions??
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Re: [Open Tribunal] Tribunal
True, but they are also what has driven people away over and over again.Venus wrote:our emotions are what makes this place and these threads what they are
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Re: [Open Tribunal] Tribunal
I was originally under the impression that tribunal was created to solve in game arguments and other debates arising from the game.
I have no problem discussing peoples' opinions on posting and other board issues, just in most cases those issues are going to remain entirely up to moderator discretion.
I am willing to see how things work out though, and perhaps more interaction between the moderators, administrators and posters will create a better forum for everyone.
It should be obvious that since the switch from Tempers Ball there has been an increased level of moderator/administrator activity, which I believe is a good thing.
I have no problem discussing peoples' opinions on posting and other board issues, just in most cases those issues are going to remain entirely up to moderator discretion.
I am willing to see how things work out though, and perhaps more interaction between the moderators, administrators and posters will create a better forum for everyone.
It should be obvious that since the switch from Tempers Ball there has been an increased level of moderator/administrator activity, which I believe is a good thing.
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Re: [Open Tribunal] Tribunal
I like the overall concept of the Tribunal. It gives people a place to air their concerns.
However, due to simple human nature, I don't think it can work. While it should be a place for people to air their concerns in a calm rational manner, emotion will always factor in. Most people can't be perfectly objective, whether it's in the "reporting" of a thread to this forum, or in the replying to the reports. It's already happened in this forum.
The admin here have already stated that this is a new beginning. Things aren't just going to carry on the status quo from the old ways. Which I think it's excellent, and a strong moderation backbone should be the foundation of the new ways.
But this isn't the sidewalk outside a government building, you can't actually say whatever you want. There's no such thing as truly free speech in a setting like this. There is only a line in the sand which the moderators say "Do not cross". It's up to them to place the line, and decide what does and doesn't cross it. And while I don't believe the moderators would ever edit/delete based strictly on ones opinions, the ways in which some people express those opinions absolutely requires moderation.
TL;DR version: I don't think the Tribunal is a good idea, at least not at this time. Solid, unbiased, rational moderation is important. And while some people think it's their right to say whatever they want, it's not really, nor should it be.
However, due to simple human nature, I don't think it can work. While it should be a place for people to air their concerns in a calm rational manner, emotion will always factor in. Most people can't be perfectly objective, whether it's in the "reporting" of a thread to this forum, or in the replying to the reports. It's already happened in this forum.
Venus wrote:we have a few moderators and admin, it should be left up to them to decide what should be edited and what should not. this is nothing more than asking for others to give an opinion thats going to start a fight and more bad feelings
I absolutely agree with this. Everything related to the "racial insults" thread should be handled at the moderator level, and doesn't ever need to be public discussion. Problems with a thread/poster/idea/whatever don't need to be public. Not only can it foster feelings of resentment and possibly anger from the person the Tribunal thread is created about, but to me it also looks like a stain on the forums if it's used as it's intended. "Hey, we're all a big happy family in this house, and over there's the closet with all our ugly secrets and who doesn't like who".discussing it will only lead to bad feelings between posters
This however, I don't agree with. While the core issues of the old ways may or may not have had anything to do with the moderation, there were problems with it. There were a lot of things that went on there that, in my opinion, never should have been left to see the light of the day. There were things posted there that if a new person were to read before digging into the heart of the community, they would have walked away in disgust. Things that should have been deleted without a second thought.there was nothing at all wrong with the way the boards were edited in the first place for years and years
yes im referring to bh tb etc diff boards and diff games, sorry but it has to be done
but just my two cents here, since this is suppose to be a forum where we can post our opinions
The admin here have already stated that this is a new beginning. Things aren't just going to carry on the status quo from the old ways. Which I think it's excellent, and a strong moderation backbone should be the foundation of the new ways.
But this isn't the sidewalk outside a government building, you can't actually say whatever you want. There's no such thing as truly free speech in a setting like this. There is only a line in the sand which the moderators say "Do not cross". It's up to them to place the line, and decide what does and doesn't cross it. And while I don't believe the moderators would ever edit/delete based strictly on ones opinions, the ways in which some people express those opinions absolutely requires moderation.
TL;DR version: I don't think the Tribunal is a good idea, at least not at this time. Solid, unbiased, rational moderation is important. And while some people think it's their right to say whatever they want, it's not really, nor should it be.
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Re: [Open Tribunal] Tribunal
(10:01:26 PM) Archangel: All righty. Like it or not, I post my thoughts. =P
22:05
(10:05:56 PM) Kaz: so your not pro tribunal then
(10:06:45 PM) Archangel: pretty much. I don't disagree with the core concept, I just don't think it can work.
(10:07:38 PM) Archangel: Just my opinions though, personally I'll back whatever route you go. I wouldn'ta come back if I didn't think you guys were actually trying to make it better. =)
(10:07:59 PM) Kaz: i can see dangers with the tribunal
(10:08:25 PM) Kaz: but... on the flip side...its also a good way to find out what people actually work in the opening stages
(10:08:32 PM) Kaz: want not work
(10:09:19 PM) Archangel: Honestly my biggest concern is that, while this is a new site, new beginnings, it's still initially built on the remenants of the old site. That means that people that were left there, include some of the people who drove a lot of others away
22:10
(10:11:57 PM) Archangel: As I noted though, I believe a strong moderation stance (and that doesn't mean policing every post or anything) is the key, and you're well on your way with that. I just think personally it should be up to the moderators, not the public, to make these decisions. Input is good, but sometimes gathering that input privately is a lot better then publically
(10:12:17 PM) Kaz: its not up to the public to make the decisions
(10:12:24 PM) Kaz: the discussion is open
(10:12:38 PM) Kaz: but staff will put up the final poll, and only staff can vote in it
(10:13:42 PM) Kaz: you should notice a lack of ability to vote on the spamming matter
(10:13:55 PM) Kaz: if you can vote... let me know cos its a fuck up
(10:14:41 PM) Archangel: True, I phrased that badly (and I can't vote, you did it right). I still believe though that having this sort of things public leads to bad. People will think they're making the decisions, then when it turns out the other way....
(10:14:55 PM) Kaz: as for personal tribunals.... they need to go into the hidden subforums
(10:14:59 PM) Archangel: Now things like the spam vs threadjacking thread I think are -great- to have open discussion on
22:15
(10:15:09 PM) Kaz: the racism one is such an example
(10:16:15 PM) Kaz: need to flesh out the process for making tribunal threads
(10:16:17 PM) Kaz: infact
(10:16:36 PM) Kaz: what do you think about not letting people have the ability to start threads
(10:17:00 PM) Kaz: give a bit more control of whats open and what stay behind closed doors
(10:19:01 PM) Archangel: I was actually thinking about that, and I'm not sure it would be used, then. I was actually thinking roughly something like this:
Public Tribunal: Can not start threads, can reply.
Private Tribunal: Can start threads, can not view forum
so if people wanted to start a thread, they start it in the private tribunal, and if it's more of a "How the forum works" or "game mechanics" thread, a mod moves it.
The same could sorta be accomplished with a "Moderator must approve new posts"
22:20
(10:20:28 PM) Archangel: Or you could get really fancy, and make a form page built into phpbb that poeple post their "Tribunal thread" in, and it double posts to the public and private forums, public is "Moderator approved", private always posts. That way the thread is always created w/o ever being seen by the public if it ends up being private only.
(10:21:49 PM) Kaz: I wonder if i can actually make a forum that you can post in, but not read. I suspect the lack of read will prevent access to the screen where you can see the post button
(10:22:25 PM) Archangel: You -can- make it, but I dunno if it'd work. =P
(10:22:56 PM) Kaz: there are actually multiple private forums under tribunal, the thread would be moved to one of those, and appropriate posters added to the group to see that private subforum
(10:23:17 PM) Archangel: You can get around that with the form idea. I even have a form I can give you if you wanted to go that route, all you'd have to do is change the wording and variables. =P
(10:23:22 PM) Kaz: that might well work.... post into a forum where you cant read... mod moves to open or closed
(10:23:36 PM) Archangel: (but it'd be a lot easier if you can post to a forum you can't see. I just haven't tested that)
(10:23:52 PM) Kaz: I'm going to post this exchange
(10:24:06 PM) Archangel: Okie dokie
22:05
(10:05:56 PM) Kaz: so your not pro tribunal then
(10:06:45 PM) Archangel: pretty much. I don't disagree with the core concept, I just don't think it can work.
(10:07:38 PM) Archangel: Just my opinions though, personally I'll back whatever route you go. I wouldn'ta come back if I didn't think you guys were actually trying to make it better. =)
(10:07:59 PM) Kaz: i can see dangers with the tribunal
(10:08:25 PM) Kaz: but... on the flip side...its also a good way to find out what people actually work in the opening stages
(10:08:32 PM) Kaz: want not work
(10:09:19 PM) Archangel: Honestly my biggest concern is that, while this is a new site, new beginnings, it's still initially built on the remenants of the old site. That means that people that were left there, include some of the people who drove a lot of others away
22:10
(10:11:57 PM) Archangel: As I noted though, I believe a strong moderation stance (and that doesn't mean policing every post or anything) is the key, and you're well on your way with that. I just think personally it should be up to the moderators, not the public, to make these decisions. Input is good, but sometimes gathering that input privately is a lot better then publically
(10:12:17 PM) Kaz: its not up to the public to make the decisions
(10:12:24 PM) Kaz: the discussion is open
(10:12:38 PM) Kaz: but staff will put up the final poll, and only staff can vote in it
(10:13:42 PM) Kaz: you should notice a lack of ability to vote on the spamming matter
(10:13:55 PM) Kaz: if you can vote... let me know cos its a fuck up
(10:14:41 PM) Archangel: True, I phrased that badly (and I can't vote, you did it right). I still believe though that having this sort of things public leads to bad. People will think they're making the decisions, then when it turns out the other way....
(10:14:55 PM) Kaz: as for personal tribunals.... they need to go into the hidden subforums
(10:14:59 PM) Archangel: Now things like the spam vs threadjacking thread I think are -great- to have open discussion on
22:15
(10:15:09 PM) Kaz: the racism one is such an example
(10:16:15 PM) Kaz: need to flesh out the process for making tribunal threads
(10:16:17 PM) Kaz: infact
(10:16:36 PM) Kaz: what do you think about not letting people have the ability to start threads
(10:17:00 PM) Kaz: give a bit more control of whats open and what stay behind closed doors
(10:19:01 PM) Archangel: I was actually thinking about that, and I'm not sure it would be used, then. I was actually thinking roughly something like this:
Public Tribunal: Can not start threads, can reply.
Private Tribunal: Can start threads, can not view forum
so if people wanted to start a thread, they start it in the private tribunal, and if it's more of a "How the forum works" or "game mechanics" thread, a mod moves it.
The same could sorta be accomplished with a "Moderator must approve new posts"
22:20
(10:20:28 PM) Archangel: Or you could get really fancy, and make a form page built into phpbb that poeple post their "Tribunal thread" in, and it double posts to the public and private forums, public is "Moderator approved", private always posts. That way the thread is always created w/o ever being seen by the public if it ends up being private only.
(10:21:49 PM) Kaz: I wonder if i can actually make a forum that you can post in, but not read. I suspect the lack of read will prevent access to the screen where you can see the post button
(10:22:25 PM) Archangel: You -can- make it, but I dunno if it'd work. =P
(10:22:56 PM) Kaz: there are actually multiple private forums under tribunal, the thread would be moved to one of those, and appropriate posters added to the group to see that private subforum
(10:23:17 PM) Archangel: You can get around that with the form idea. I even have a form I can give you if you wanted to go that route, all you'd have to do is change the wording and variables. =P
(10:23:22 PM) Kaz: that might well work.... post into a forum where you cant read... mod moves to open or closed
(10:23:36 PM) Archangel: (but it'd be a lot easier if you can post to a forum you can't see. I just haven't tested that)
(10:23:52 PM) Kaz: I'm going to post this exchange
(10:24:06 PM) Archangel: Okie dokie
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Re: [Open Tribunal] Tribunal
You'd then have to authorize the poster to be able to read their own tribunal thread...
And I never even got my own damn posting title!
Re: [Open Tribunal] Tribunal
And again, I did not know the process of creating a Tribunal thread when I did (though I suppose someone had to learn by trying, so it might as well be me). I do feel that there are issues that are not game related but deserve public attention. The issue that upset me so much is one such example. I have no issue with moderators feeling otherwise and informing me of why they do not wish something I want to discuss to be public, provided I have the chance to make my case for it as well.
And I never even got my own damn posting title!
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Re: [Open Tribunal] Tribunal
I think that the other thread is not in the right place here in tribunal.
I do think it is ok to be discussed, but not sure where it should go.
Editing is at the hands of the admin. Its a hard thing to decide.. edit something and piss off the writer, or don't and piss off everyone who wants it to be edited.
As far as tribunal goes. I think you hit the nail on the head in your discuss with Archangel. DO NOT allow anyone to post threads in here but admins.
Forces someone to message you about the validity of the tribunal discussion.
I'm still not sure what you had in mind with it, but i'm trying to.
As well maybe there can be somewhere to post stuff like the other thread. An "open debate" thread. However, as much as i love debates, i think some of the hot button issues could cause problems if there are lots of places to talk about it.
There shouldnt be too much discussion about admin edits. But the rules (which are still being discussed? as i dont see a Rules link at top yet or anything i can find, just the thread) do state things.. but very generalistic. Obviously what one or more of us considered Racism, was not considered a break of the rules.
I am no a beaurocrat, so i have no clue how to clarify things. But i think it should be simple... break the rules, edits will be done and warnings/bannings will be given etc. then there should be no questioning it.
Your original idea of tribunal does not require people to create their own threads.. rather it should force them to wait, and go through you to get it figured out. However, i'm not entirely sure what kind of 'issues' will people bring up, that you have the right to vote on?
Its a good idea, i think... but until a GOOD example is set (considering our first try seems to not be a good example of the use for this forum) it will be confusing. Maybe create one (on purpose)?
I do think it is ok to be discussed, but not sure where it should go.
Editing is at the hands of the admin. Its a hard thing to decide.. edit something and piss off the writer, or don't and piss off everyone who wants it to be edited.
As far as tribunal goes. I think you hit the nail on the head in your discuss with Archangel. DO NOT allow anyone to post threads in here but admins.
Forces someone to message you about the validity of the tribunal discussion.
I'm still not sure what you had in mind with it, but i'm trying to.
As well maybe there can be somewhere to post stuff like the other thread. An "open debate" thread. However, as much as i love debates, i think some of the hot button issues could cause problems if there are lots of places to talk about it.
There shouldnt be too much discussion about admin edits. But the rules (which are still being discussed? as i dont see a Rules link at top yet or anything i can find, just the thread) do state things.. but very generalistic. Obviously what one or more of us considered Racism, was not considered a break of the rules.
I am no a beaurocrat, so i have no clue how to clarify things. But i think it should be simple... break the rules, edits will be done and warnings/bannings will be given etc. then there should be no questioning it.
Your original idea of tribunal does not require people to create their own threads.. rather it should force them to wait, and go through you to get it figured out. However, i'm not entirely sure what kind of 'issues' will people bring up, that you have the right to vote on?
Its a good idea, i think... but until a GOOD example is set (considering our first try seems to not be a good example of the use for this forum) it will be confusing. Maybe create one (on purpose)?
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Re: [Open Tribunal] Tribunal
Agreed.DO NOT allow anyone to post threads in here but admins.
Forces someone to message you about the validity of the tribunal discussion.
Agreed.As well maybe there can be somewhere to post stuff like the other thread. An "open debate" thread.
And I never even got my own damn posting title!
Re: [Open Tribunal] Tribunal
I think the very conclusions reached here are prime examples of why the Tribunal is a good idea and works. Even on a rather delicate issue like racism (even if it didn't have to be a Tribunal issue), the involved posters were forced to think on the matter and post their views. That Gerien and Atla disagree is nothing new. But both have read and understood the other's position on the issue and therefore can reach an agreement to disagree.
Did the discussion change nothing then? I think it did. It took away the festering malcontent which after all those years made TB a 'cesspool', to use the words of old Eisheth. Things were spoken about and some sort of understanding grew. That is a great asset and improvement when compared to BH/TB.
That doesn't conflict with our being ourselves. But some self-constraint doesn't hurt at some occasions. V, you often write taht you've held your tongue for a while. Why? Speak your mind and tell us why you think so, much as you have done here. We don't have to be one happy family without disagreement. But there should be reasonable discussions, even (or perhaps especially) if it regards heavier topics.
We're not 13 anymore. We've matured. I think that's the main reason why this fresh start has a good chance of becoming a big success.
Did the discussion change nothing then? I think it did. It took away the festering malcontent which after all those years made TB a 'cesspool', to use the words of old Eisheth. Things were spoken about and some sort of understanding grew. That is a great asset and improvement when compared to BH/TB.
That doesn't conflict with our being ourselves. But some self-constraint doesn't hurt at some occasions. V, you often write taht you've held your tongue for a while. Why? Speak your mind and tell us why you think so, much as you have done here. We don't have to be one happy family without disagreement. But there should be reasonable discussions, even (or perhaps especially) if it regards heavier topics.
We're not 13 anymore. We've matured. I think that's the main reason why this fresh start has a good chance of becoming a big success.
If word gets out that I'm missing, 500 girls will kill themselves and I wouldn't want them on my conscience - not when they ought to be on my face!
Re: [Open Tribunal] Tribunal
yes from what i can see my thread did accomplish changing something, that along with ideas from a few others
but i like to think some of what i said accomplished the threads being hidden till the mods decide if it needs to be open discussion
that was the point i was trying to make.
but i like to think some of what i said accomplished the threads being hidden till the mods decide if it needs to be open discussion
that was the point i was trying to make.
Wow do i need a new signature or what. suggestions??
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- Teanos
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Re: [Open Tribunal] Tribunal
I'll be honest with you. Here are the options.
1.) We use the tribunal to at least try and be some what fair, and allow more then just one, or two people to make a end all be all decision.
2.) We let one or two people make the end all be all decision. (We did this in BH/TB, see how well that worked)
3.) We let everything and anything go, and end up walking away disgusted. (We did this in BH/TB, see how well that worked.)
I'm kind of out of options at this point. The stuff we've done in the past, letting moderators try and moderate to some degree ended up with people claiming they were biased. Hell, sometimes they were. We tried letting everything go, and tried to not ban people or edit them for being assmonkies. that ended in most of us wanting to quit and eventually quitting. We tried letting myself or another admin be the end all be all, that ended in people being banned and a bunch of hate mail/posts and a couple people going as far as to try and ruin the whole community by targeting the sites and places we wanted to advertise at. That didn't work as it lead to the above two methods.
I'm willing to give Tribunal a chance, maybe when people see that more then just one person thinks they are being a little out of control it will trigger something and they will calm down.
If not, we'll go back to the old ways and just remove the problem(s) I guess.
1.) We use the tribunal to at least try and be some what fair, and allow more then just one, or two people to make a end all be all decision.
2.) We let one or two people make the end all be all decision. (We did this in BH/TB, see how well that worked)
3.) We let everything and anything go, and end up walking away disgusted. (We did this in BH/TB, see how well that worked.)
I'm kind of out of options at this point. The stuff we've done in the past, letting moderators try and moderate to some degree ended up with people claiming they were biased. Hell, sometimes they were. We tried letting everything go, and tried to not ban people or edit them for being assmonkies. that ended in most of us wanting to quit and eventually quitting. We tried letting myself or another admin be the end all be all, that ended in people being banned and a bunch of hate mail/posts and a couple people going as far as to try and ruin the whole community by targeting the sites and places we wanted to advertise at. That didn't work as it lead to the above two methods.
I'm willing to give Tribunal a chance, maybe when people see that more then just one person thinks they are being a little out of control it will trigger something and they will calm down.
If not, we'll go back to the old ways and just remove the problem(s) I guess.
Even a ghost needs to breathe.
Re: Tribunal (Good Idea or Bad Idea)
Why not do a mock Tribunal to let everybody see how it goes i volunteer to be the giny-pig.....
i know what you said about my Momma
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Re: Tribunal (Good Idea or Bad Idea)
Why do we need a mock tribunal?? we already had a real one lolowly wrote:Why not do a mock Tribunal to let everybody see how it goes i volunteer to be the giny-pig.....
Programming is 10% science, 25% ingenuity and 65% getting the ingenuity to work with the science
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Re: Tribunal (Good Idea or Bad Idea)
Two and a half one actually (this one, the spam one being the whole two and Gerien's thread being the half one). I really think that good results have been reached in each of the three threads, and agree with Teanos' analysis. Removing the problem(s) should be a last resort, if a proper discussion cannot lead to an acceptable outcome/verdict.
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Re: Tribunal (Good Idea or Bad Idea)
I take the lack of a response to mean that there is no further discussion needed on this topic.
I also don't see the need to have a poll and vote on this topic, however I will leave it open for another 24 hours in case anyone has anything else to add.
Thanks.
I also don't see the need to have a poll and vote on this topic, however I will leave it open for another 24 hours in case anyone has anything else to add.
Thanks.
Even a ghost needs to breathe.
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