Massacre - Guilds (...instead of 'traditional' Guilds)

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Massacre - Guilds (...instead of 'traditional' Guilds)

Postby Kaz » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:16 pm

I have decided to split this out of the ideal game thread, as that is not the ideal place to get opinions.

We are considering releasing the Solo and Quad versions first.

The Guilded version would have to wait for the v2 merged code though, as it would require additional code to impliment.

As usual this is not a new features suggestion thread, but this is one thread where you need to get your opinion in.

We are considering not having any other form of game initially.

For those of you not familiar with what a 'Massacre style game' actually is, here is a short summary taken from a recent ICQ conversation.


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Basic Settings
Game Name : Massacre - Guilds
Game Style (Age, Instance) : Massacre
Kingdoms : 1
Races : All races
Gods : Angelique, Barnabas, Leto

Max Turns : unlimited
NPP : 500
Turns Per Hour : 0
Tithe Pool: 60,000 acres
Caravan Frequency : 3x Daily
Starting Cash: 10,000
Starting Land : 500 acres
Starting Turns : 5000 first kingdom & RP kingdoms, 3000 restarts and Non-RP kingdoms
BRT Style : Normal

Module Settings
Alliances : On
Load / Save : On
Guilds : On
Ranked Quads : Off
List Kingdom Declarations : On
Kill Bounty (Turns, Elan, Cash, All, Custom Mix, Off) : All
UB: War and Ranks (UBSolo) : Off
UB: Guilds and Scouts (UBUnity) : On
Personal Banner : Off
Logout Bonuses: Off
Scores Screen : On

Special Settings
One Time Turn Bonus Button : Off
Change Race at Restart : On
Delete Dead Kingdom : Off
Auto Reset : On
Last Standing (Prevents Restarting): Off
Max Save Turns : 500
Reduce War and Sorc Damage to BRT : Off
List All on Scrolls : On
Uphit Only : On when attacking NPC kingdoms, Off when atacking player kingdoms
War Own Faith : Off
UG Flag : Off
Restart Living Kingdom : On
Leave NPP Early : On
Open During Game Holidays : Off

Additional Rules:
* As per normal massacre rules, points are accumilated by living non-npp kingdoms
* Points, Kills etc are awarded to guilds as well and kingdoms
* Selection of NPC kingdoms to kill
* Timed guild wars. E.g, Fervent declares on ISA for 2 day war. Score, deaths etc are calculated during war duration.
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Re: Define your ideal Monarchy game

Postby Kaz » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:19 pm

Basic Settings
Game Name : Massacre - Quad
Game Style (Age, Instance) : Massacre
Kingdoms : 4
Races : All races
Gods : Angelique, Barnabas, Leto

Max Turns : unlimited
NPP : 1000
Turns Per Hour : 0
Tithe Pool: 90,000 acres
Caravan Frequency : 3x Daily
Starting Cash: 10,000
Starting Land : 500 acres
Starting Turns : 7500 first kingdom, 4500 restarts
BRT Style : Normal

Module Settings
Alliances : On
Load / Save : On
Guilds : Off
Ranked Quads : On
List Kingdom Declarations : On
Kill Bounty (Turns, Elan, Cash, All, Custom Mix, Off) : All
UB: War and Ranks (UBSolo) : Off
UB: Guilds and Scouts (UBUnity) : On
Personal Banner : On (Quad Banner)
Logout Bonuses: Off
Scores Screen : On

Special Settings
One Time Turn Bonus Button : Off
Change Race at Restart : On
Delete Dead Kingdom : Off
Auto Reset : On
Last Standing (Prevents Restarting): Off
Max Save Turns : 1000
Reduce War and Sorc Damage to BRT : Off
List All on Scrolls : On
Uphit Only : On when attacking NPC kingdoms, Off when atacking player kingdoms
War Own Faith : Off
UG Flag : Off
Restart Living Kingdom : On
Leave NPP Early : On
Open During Game Holidays : Off

Additional Rules:
* As per normal massacre rules, points are accumilated by living non-npp kingdoms
* Points, Kills etc are awarded to quads as well and kingdoms
* Selection of NPC kingdoms to kill
* Timed quad wars. E.g, Fervent Quad 1 declares on ISA Quad 3 for 2 day war. Score, deaths etc are calculated during war duration.
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Re: Define your ideal Monarchy game

Postby Kaz » Fri Oct 09, 2009 12:23 pm

Basic Settings
Game Name : Massacre - Solo
Game Style (Age, Instance) : Massacre
Kingdoms : 1
Races : All races
Gods : Angelique, Barnabas, Leto

Max Turns : unlimited
NPP : 1000
Turns Per Hour : 0
Tithe Pool: 90,000 acres
Caravan Frequency : N/A
Starting Cash: 10,000
Starting Land : 500 acres
Starting Turns : 7500 first kingdom, 4500 restarts
BRT Style : Normal

Module Settings
Alliances : Off
Load / Save : On
Guilds : Off
Ranked Quads : Off
List Kingdom Declarations : On
Kill Bounty (Turns, Elan, Cash, All, Custom Mix, Off) : All
UB: War and Ranks (UBSolo) : On
UB: Guilds and Scouts (UBUnity) : Off
Personal Banner : On
Logout Bonuses: Off
Scores Screen : On

Special Settings
One Time Turn Bonus Button : Off
Change Race at Restart : On
Delete Dead Kingdom : Off
Auto Reset : On
Last Standing (Prevents Restarting): Off
Max Save Turns : 1000
Reduce War and Sorc Damage to BRT : Off
List All on Scrolls : On
Uphit Only : On when attacking NPC kingdoms, Off when atacking player kingdoms
War Own Faith : Off
UG Flag : Off
Restart Living Kingdom : On
Leave NPP Early : On
Open During Game Holidays : Off

Additional Rules:
* As per normal massacre rules, points are accumilated by living non-npp kingdoms
* Selection of NPC kingdoms to kill
Programming is 10% science, 25% ingenuity and 65% getting the ingenuity to work with the science
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Re: Massacre : Guilds (... and other variations)

Postby Kaz » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:02 pm

We are considering releasing the Solo and Quad versions first.

The Guilded version would have to wait for the v2 merged code though, as it would require additional code to impliment.

As usual this is not a new features suggestion thread, but this is one thread where you need to get your opinion in.

We are considering not having any other form of game initially.

For those of you not familiar with what a 'Massacre style game' actually is, here is a short summary taken from a recent ICQ conversation.

(6:26:50 PM) Kaz: have you ever played massacre....or at least do you know what makes it special?
(6:27:01 PM) Kaz: if not, i'll explain it first
(6:27:14 PM) Archangel: I'm sorta somewhat familiar with the concept, but a base explination of massacre wouldn't hurt
(6:27:20 PM) Kaz: ok
(6:27:29 PM) Kaz: it's a king of the hill game
(6:29:55 PM) Kaz: you start with 7500 turns (although you restart with 4500). NPP is 1000 turns, but you are able to load saved builds to avoid having to spend them each time. When out of NPP you gain points each scroll refresh, depending on rank. Other stats are also taken like maximum networth, kills, deaths, turns absorbed etc. You generally log in to a dead realm.

The downside was the playerbase. Half the time there were no living realms to kill except for a huge super realm. To resolve that here, I am going to write a cron script that rotates a selection of killable NPC kingdoms into play
18:30
(6:31:53 PM) Kaz: oh yeah.... there is a 0 turns rate, you start with all the turns you are going to get. Until you get killed of course. The only other way to get turns is through kill bounties. The player that kills a realm can claim their unspent turns for themselves. Later code enables cash and elan to be claimed too (you pick one of the three) but that wont hit massacre until v2
(6:33:54 PM) Archangel: Hm. Well, I get the concept. I like the idea of the NPC realms to keep things fresh, and I think it'd be almost necessary at the getgo until the player base is repopulated.
(6:34:21 PM) Kaz: because of the short lifespan, and ease of rebuilding quickly...the only complaints we ever recieved in massacre was that it was boring... NPC realms would releive that
(6:37:16 PM) Kaz: anyway....back to the real point of this conversation. What if - instead of a normal age based guild game - we added guilds to the massacre game, and (while out of npp) guilds also acumilated kills, deaths, points etc etc. Downhits would be irrelevent other than in numbers. Politics could remain because guildwars are still fightable. We could even add a time limit to wars, eg declare for 2 days, and stats are taken for the duration
(6:37:36 PM) Archangel: Couple thoughts: first, I'd set the cron job to be random, or very very frequent. If it were a couple times per day, for example, at set times, you'd have people camp the realms when they respawened. The other thing I'm thinking is would the addition of the NPC realms really make it more engaging. There would be things to hit more often, but it wouldn't really open it up to player interaction. Kind of a double edged sword though, cause you need something to "spruce things up" till the player base grows. (and you can ignore the above now I think since you just posted the actual "What if" statement. heh)
(6:38:38 PM) Kaz: the NPC thought was to have 30 ish NPC realms, 5 per faith. Every 20 mins the cron checks for deaths and rotates in other realms to mainatin the 5 per faith
(6:39:37 PM) Kaz: would probably use the solo uphit checks for NPC kingdoms, meaning that you can only declare war on a kingdom with at least 90% of your land
(6:39:48 PM) Kaz: an NPC kingdom
(6:41:04 PM) Archangel: My gut reaction is still to the job run at a random time. Like every 5-25 minutes. But lemme think on that more, and turn this back to your actual idea. =P
(6:41:24 PM) Kaz: there would still be player interaction... the NPC kingdoms will not give decent bounties. Real kingdoms can be killed with thousands of claimable turns
(6:42:45 PM) Kaz: the guilded massacre would only be available for v2 though.... there is too much change required to screens we are trying to 'recode'
(6:44:22 PM) Archangel: I like the idea of a guilded version of Massacre, I'm just trying to run through my head just how the wars would go
(6:46:20 PM) Kaz: Fervent declare war on ISA for 2 days. Over the next 48 hours kingdoms that are attackable gain points for their rank. 48 hours later the war ends, and is listed along with kills, deaths, turns absorbed, points, highest acheive networth etc etc
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Re: Massacre - Guilds (...instead of 'traditional' Guilds)

Postby Gerien » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:34 pm

I'd set the cron job to be random, or very very frequent. If it were a couple times per day, for example, at set times, you'd have people camp the realms when they respawened.
I'd second random updates.

would probably use the solo uphit checks for NPC kingdoms, meaning that you can only declare war on a kingdom with at least 90% of your land
You might need to make that difference a little more generous. Perhaps get feedback on how often players are able to hit NPC kingdoms with say, 20% versus 10% difference.

There would be things to hit more often, but it wouldn't really open it up to player interaction.

What about the suggestion elsewhere that NPCs hit back? That would at least make it a LITTLE more interesting.

We could even add a time limit to wars, eg declare for 2 days, and stats are taken for the duration
This is the best idea for any guilds game I've seen in years.
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Re: Massacre - Guilds (...instead of 'traditional' Guilds)

Postby Kaz » Fri Oct 09, 2009 2:40 pm

The solo uphit code idea is to prevent the mega kingdoms who built up a load of turns by killing online kingdoms and claiming bounties, getting even bigger feeding on NPC's.
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Re: Massacre - Guilds (...instead of 'traditional' Guilds)

Postby Vox » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:07 pm

I'll play solo or guilds (don't care for multiple kingdom games), can't say if i'll like it til then but i ain't gonna waste no one's time bitching because something isn't the way i would of liked it. Because overall this might be the best option since we can't seem to get away from the past. And the past is what will keep me from playing more than a game change.
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Re: Massacre - Guilds (...instead of 'traditional' Guilds)

Postby Kaz » Fri Oct 09, 2009 3:19 pm

(7:41:21 PM) Archangel: So now I can start wrapping my brain around massacre-guilds again.
I'm cool with how the game would work, and the scoring, what I'm wondering (and trying to plot out) is how an actual war would go. From declaration to first hit to retalation, etc
(7:42:00 PM) Kaz: well.... that would depend on how many of the target were out of npp.
(7:42:15 PM) Kaz: but you'd declare, kill what's there and fort up waiting for retal
(7:42:33 PM) Kaz: the period where you are forted is where your points accumilate
(7:43:15 PM) Kaz: they would then hit back, but maybe you are online and manage to get a kill in with a big kingdom. They claim a decent chunk of turns and are back in the game
(7:43:59 PM) Kaz: you back and forth killing over and over, generating points, until the war ends and the stats get saved
19:45
(7:45:27 PM) Kaz: numeric disadvantage could be policed by other guilds taking out the 'gangbanger'. The defending guild would miss out on kills, but might be able to stay alive longer for the points
(7:45:46 PM) Archangel: And the question is, would it really happen that way, or would the initial strike be so devestating, and subsequent reforting be so effective, that retaliation was impossible?
(7:47:39 PM) Kaz: The biggest kingdom in the last game of massacre was "Endbringer (50002)1,508,317,554" it was killed
(7:47:59 PM) Kaz: doesnt matter how big you are, you're weak somewhere
(7:48:13 PM) Kaz: big nasty war hungry droben, dies to sorc
(7:48:18 PM) Kaz: or to scum
(7:49:06 PM) Kaz: your retal is from restarted dead realms that have picked an ideal save for the kingdoms out of npp, and still have at least 3500 turns to burn
(7:49:58 PM) Archangel: I think the dynamic of it being a guild is what will change things. A truly bloodthirsty guild could take and hold the top with impunity, I think
19:50
(7:50:13 PM) Archangel: And, I don't think it would take them long to do it.
(7:50:46 PM) Kaz: they would have to be online all the time killing realms that have a significant turn cost to attack in order to get the turn bounties to keep going
(7:51:38 PM) Kaz: with war declarations (rather than guild) you have to finish the kingdom (at whatever turn cost) before you can move on
(7:52:37 PM) Kaz: more active guilds will do well on points.... however, the less active will prolly do better on kills, coming out of npp when its right
(7:53:02 PM) Kaz: get 4 kills for 1 kingdom, thats a good average kill score
(7:53:08 PM) Kaz: you oly die once
(7:53:39 PM) Archangel: Yea, but if a guild were to get a solid lead, they could just sit on their turns until the 48 hours passed, then immediately pick the next highest guild.
At the low ranks, it would be dog eat dog, but if a guild -did- get a head start, I just see a snowball
I could be completely wrong though, as I never actually played massacre
(7:54:49 PM) Kaz: massacre tends to be spend all your turns, come back the next day to a dead kingdom
19:55
(7:55:16 PM) Kaz: death is critical in order to get more turns
(7:55:42 PM) Archangel: Sure, especially when you're the only kingdom (or a quad), but a guild? You could distribute your resources a bit more carefully
(7:55:43 PM) Kaz: bounty is good, but unless the person is online, or stopped without spending all their turns, you might not get many from it
(7:56:14 PM) Archangel: On a related note though, I'm not sure that a massacre game would ever actually -start- in a guild environment
(7:56:25 PM) Archangel: Every guild would sit 1 turn out of NPP waiting to get the first strike
(7:56:32 PM) Archangel: Does NPP eventually wear off on it's own?
(7:56:42 PM) Kaz: 1 turns out of NPP is a stupid mistake
(7:56:52 PM) Archangel: Sorry, 1 turn away from leaving NPP
(7:56:54 PM) Kaz: that means when i kill your first instance kingdom
(7:57:00 PM) Kaz: ok
(7:57:08 PM) Kaz: that kingdom is not generating points
(7:57:29 PM) Kaz: your overall age points will need you to leave protection
(7:57:53 PM) Archangel: But would it matter? Start of the "age", everyone is building and getting their guilds together, why would you leave NPP without a target your guild could jump on?
(7:58:55 PM) Kaz: say there are 10 attackable NPC kingdoms. You can use them to build up strong defensable kingdoms that will generate a lot of points. We are talking something like 100 points every 20 mins for the king
(7:59:52 PM) Kaz: death while not at war, would not mean so much
20:00
(8:00:05 PM) Kaz: becasue it would be the standard behaviour for a massacre style game
(8:00:12 PM) Archangel: Sure, but the guild that jumps those NPCs put themelves out there for attack. They've given up the first strike in hopes of being strong enough to survive the intiial onslaught from another guild (which is extremely unlikely)
(8:00:44 PM) Kaz: but they then have a guilds worth of 4500 turn kingdoms to retaliate with, and the attackers have spent their turns
(8:00:46 PM) Archangel: They'd get an early start on points, but they'd drop in rank almost immediately as soon as GuildB saw GuildA was out of NPP
(8:01:05 PM) Kaz: and are in the same place you were
(8:01:25 PM) Kaz: first strike will probably kill everyone in a guild... as will the retal
(8:01:46 PM) Kaz: its a lot of turns
(8:01:49 PM) Archangel: That's under the assumption that someone would actually make that first strike on NPCs to come out of NPP, though. I'm still not convinced they would
(8:02:03 PM) Kaz: 1000 npp turns of dedicated temples.... kills a whole guild between 3 or 4 of you
(8:02:07 PM) Kaz: no matter their size
(8:02:37 PM) Kaz: if you dont come out of npp, then you have no game to play
(8:03:27 PM) Kaz: i'd personally play for the ratio between kills and deaths
(8:03:47 PM) Kaz: if i have 10 attackable NPCs and i can kill 4 of them, then thats 4 kills over 1 death
(8:04:39 PM) Kaz: i come back the next day and do the same...each time i am getting points. Doesnt even matter if i attack a guilded kingdom out of war, because that is the only way to build the points for your own guild
20:05
(8:07:01 PM) Archangel: Before any of my comments get taken too negatively, let me state that I do think it's a great idea, and I'd love to see it and play it. I just think that the dynamic is going to be -so different- from massacre-solo, that it'll be cool to see how it plays otu
(8:07:30 PM) Kaz: the dynamic will define itself
(8:07:36 PM) Archangel: And, I think the people who've played the game, but never played massacre, will actually have an advantage. =P
(8:07:38 PM) Kaz: massacre didnt turn out how i expected it
(8:07:53 PM) Kaz: i expected people to make the turns last all age
(8:07:56 PM) Kaz: but they didnt
(8:08:08 PM) Kaz: they unloaded turns at each other online
(8:08:16 PM) Archangel: I'm just trying to look at this from the angle of "how -could- it play out, and would people enjoy it?".
(8:08:50 PM) Archangel: And I don't mean enjoy it based on the gameplay mechanic, I have full faith in those, but enjoy it based on what the people will turn the game into
(8:09:06 PM) Archangel: And though I can speculate all day long, I think the only surefire way to know is to try it
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Re: Massacre - Guilds (...instead of 'traditional' Guilds)

Postby Zeblamar » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:24 pm

I kinda like the idea. Bringing guilds into Massacre would bring a totally new out look on things. No kingdom would be safe. How you spend your turns in NPP would mean a lot. Question is how many people are going to want to run war strikes almost every day? I mean ya you can banner hit but with kingdoms being able to change so quickly don't know how good that would work.

With all the turns you get even some one who isn't that good yet at building a kingdom can get a decent one started with 500 - 1000 turns of NPP. So I think it would be good for new players. You can learn a lot in a short time with that many turns. Not to mention that the next day you would get try some thing new. Think it would also be easier to teach new players how to do things. I mean every day you would get to build, attack, and defend your kingdom. So new players wouldn't get board waiting for turns and then building for multiple days before they get to do any thing.

With NPC kingdoms added would give the bigger kingdoms and those with a lot of time on there hands some thing to do. My opinion is to defiantly have them pop up randomly so they are not camped.
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Re: Massacre - Guilds (...instead of 'traditional' Guilds)

Postby Kaz » Fri Oct 09, 2009 6:34 pm

I would guess, that to avoid having to war strike frequently, peace time warfare could take off instead.

There is no real reason to not randomly kill at will in a massacre style game, as death is the main source of turns.

But there was one thing that creating Massacre taught me. What I expected the game to be, and how the game was actually played, were very different.

I suspect that adding a Guilded element could do the same sort of thing, with the political side creating a new way of play, and new ideas of what is allowed, and what justifies guild war.
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Re: Massacre - Guilds (...instead of 'traditional' Guilds)

Postby Nagash » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:12 am

Sounds like it's worth the try though. :)
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Re: Massacre - Guilds (...instead of 'traditional' Guilds)

Postby Kaz » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:53 am

It's cool that those of you who have posted like the sound of the idea. In fact everyone I spoke to about it also thinks it's worth a try.

Too be honest though, this is kind of surprising, as we had expected at lease 'some' resistance to the idea.

But if everyone actually likes the suggestion then I'll work towards getting it done. The guilded version wont happen with the existing canon source though. The guild changes required are a little to complex to do before we finish the code merge.

The version with the ranked quads should be easy enough to add though, as I'm pretty sure I can just grab the code from the old LQS source and add it to Massacre without any major changes required..
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Re: Massacre - Guilds (...instead of 'traditional' Guilds)

Postby Imo » Sat Oct 10, 2009 12:19 pm

massacre was fun when it first came out, then it became repetitive, kill, die, kill, die (and number of realms around also dropped) and i started to lose interest and less motivated

i like this idea, it's def worth a try, hopefully it'll bring in some social aspects (war chats were pretty fun), 75% why i play the game
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Re: Massacre - Guilds (...instead of 'traditional' Guilds)

Postby Kaz » Sat Oct 10, 2009 6:50 pm

From what I understand it, Massacre was best when there were others playing online at the same time.

I never experienced this cos my timezone didn't have many players.

But the teamspeak server could add an interesting element if you can chat to the other massacre players online
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