The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

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The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby Archangel » Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:49 pm

So, we're a ways into the game now, and I'd like to get some feedback from those playing, and even those not playing.

Consider this an open suggestion/feedback thread, with only one limitation. Changes should not change the core nature of Massacre (which I will not define. Consider that part of this exercise). Beyond that, this thread is open to any and all thoughts. Things you like, things you don't like, things you wish worked differently, things you wish worked at all, things you wish were added. If you can think of it, toss it in here!

Disclaimer: While all ideas will be read and considered, we make no promises to respond to each idea, nor to make each change suggested. Some will be impossible until the recode, some will just not fit our idea of the game. It's impossible to say though what can and can't work without seeing the ideas, so post away!

Also, feel free to discuss, refine, question, etc other people's ideas, but keep it civil.
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby Zeblamar » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:49 am

Off the top of my head the only thing I feel needs to be adjusted is the amount of troops that leave when you kill peasant. With the amount of turns that we have it makes it way to easy for a small kingdom to take down a big one.

I have noticed that T4 troops aren't effected as much as other troops. So the races that don't use T4 for defense are at a disadvantage.

An example of this is when Mickal had his 11.5mill acre kingdom. After spending only a couple hundred turns killing peasants. I know it sounds like a lot but its not when you have over a thousand. I got rid of over 1 million T1 troops and over 200,000 T4. I also have had this done to me and seen almost half my defense leave.

I have no problem with troops leaving when peasants are killed. I just feel that an adjustment needs to be made to how many troops leave.

Other wise I think every thing else is great. Yes I have commented on wishing the build rate would go up when we get big kingdoms, but thinking about it that is our own fault for not building between wars.
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby MoP » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:39 am

I'd like to see more buildings captured when conquering land. I think only forts and mills are transferred now, is that correct? I think Temples and Income Structures should also change ownership.

Other than that, I love the NPCs :D
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby Archangel » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:22 am

Zeblamar wrote:Off the top of my head the only thing I feel needs to be adjusted is the amount of troops that leave when you kill peasant. With the amount of turns that we have it makes it way to easy for a small kingdom to take down a big one.

I have noticed that T4 troops aren't effected as much as other troops. So the races that don't use T4 for defense are at a disadvantage.


I'm not convinced this is an issue, but I'm willing to entertain the discussion.

First, realize that any kingdom in the game faces a tradeoff. If you stack 100% offense, you sacrifice scum, defense, and possibly sorc. If you stack 100% defense, you sacrifice offense, and you have to balance your defense between war and scum. If you stack 100% scum, you give up offense and war defense.

If you got into a kingdom and began killing troops, that means that kingdom is already vulnerable to scum, and for just a few turns more you could have scum killed that kingdom. Rather, you wanted the land, so you put them on the brink of death, and then switched to war. The sacrifice you make in that case is spending the extra turns scumming them. True, those turns may be a drop in the bucket when your bucket has thousands of turns, but in either case, you found a weakness in that kingdom and used it.

That aside, under the presumption that this is a problem:

There are two fixes I see.

1. Reduce the number of troops killed. Different troops get killed at different rates, we can tweak some of those down and some of those up. This is a fine balancing act though, because if the numbers are tweaked too low, the attack becomes ineffective (for anything except the intended killing by scum), because there is a hard limit on what percentage of troops you can kill, due to the fact that you will kill the kingdom if you take them too low.

2. This is a bit more drastic, but the other option (which would not happen in v1) would be to normalize troops. As noted, this attack is far more effective against those who do not use T4 for defense. What we could do is make it so that, for example, T1 are the cheapest, low O, low D. T2 are higher O, low D, T3 are mid O mid D, and T4 are mid O high D. This would cause all kingdoms to use roughly the same set of troops (with specific troop strength per race still different), which would cause the scum attack to be less effective across the board. There's a lot of pros and cons to this option, feel free to discuss it if you want.

Zeblamar wrote:Yes I have commented on wishing the build rate would go up when we get big kingdoms, but thinking about it that is our own fault for not building between wars.


I disagree with the "our fault for not building" part. After a certain size kingdom, it's nearly impossible to build between wars. It actually becomes almost impossible to even build between war hits, due to the mass amount of land taken. And the turns needed becomes insane, even with Massacre's huge turn buckets.

We'll be implementing a change to fix this shortly.

MoP wrote:I'd like to see more buildings captured when conquering land. I think only forts and mills are transferred now, is that correct? I think Temples and Income Structures should also change ownership.


I agree, and we've already worked out a change for this. Expect this to be implemented shortly with the above noted change. Specifics will be coming in another post.


Thanks for the input so far, and feel free to continue discussing and/or suggesting!
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby Kaz » Wed Oct 28, 2009 3:12 pm

I personally dont like the idea of normalising the troops, Firstly because it would reduce the variety of the game and make it easier for War AGM's to plan and execute war. As we're already pretty good at this, it's an improvement that we dont really need. Secondly, because it changes some things dramatically.

If we were to normalise the troops, type 1 would have to be an offensive troop, otherwise summon would become irrelevent.

Therfore; Human, Elven, Vampire, Elemental and Dwarven would get a boost in their summon capabilities, due to now being able to summon an offensive troop instead of a defensive troop.

Dwarven T1 would cease being the best defensive troop in game, which isn't really an issue. However, Elementals with large summons - caused by their high sorcery and offensive war skill - would become much more powerful. Especially combined with attacking forts.

You would then need to ensure that t1 are not the best offensive troop for any of the races in order to not further improve Droben and Elemental summons.

Doing this would mean that Kobolds stop being the best offense for Goblins which breaks with tradition and slightly reduces the 'Kobold Rage' bonus. This is also the case for Sidhe and Centaur t1's which - along with Goblin - would see an effective reduction in their summoned offensive ability.

To give a bit more defensive ability against GR, T2 would then have to become the best defensive troop for each race. Otherwise the magic races will be at an extreme disadvantage to the general increase in offensive summon strength.

Droben Opulents are actually described as a defensive troop, therefore that would make T3 the best offensive troop for each race, and force T4 to become the second best defensive troop for each race.

With T3 as the best offense and T1 as the second best you would see offensive realms as T3 with summons. Convertion to GR troops would be costly, as would conversion to defense after a strike. Guilds would have to spend more turns when changing forts, so there are at least some reasonable defender advantages with this setup.
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby bvaughan » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:21 pm

The only thing i have found is that when you are in the building process the fields where you put in how many of what structure you want to build retain the number you put in after you click build, its very annoying to have to go back and delete each field so you can change the number. maybe this is something im doing wrong if it is please let me know
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby Archangel » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:26 pm

bvaughan wrote:The only thing i have found is that when you are in the building process the fields where you put in how many of what structure you want to build retain the number you put in after you click build, its very annoying to have to go back and delete each field so you can change the number. maybe this is something im doing wrong if it is please let me know


You're not doing anything wrong, that's a feature that was added sometime in the past. It's very helpful when you're building the same amount multiple times in a row.

We'll likely add a "clear fields" button in the recode to quickly clear all the fields at once. Until that time, I suggest clicking Township again if you want to clear them quickly.
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby bvaughan » Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:42 pm

cool thanks a lot
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby Mickal Redwater » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:05 pm

I like the clear field button a lot! i find the saving the number both helpful at times, and a pain at others.

My one suggestion (before i talk about Z's suggestion) is one i made before, to have troop cap listed. AKA you have 1,500,000 to spend on troops before you're out of space. Etc. (this is very helpful when decided a ratio of scum to defense to fort).


Ok as for the scumming troops.... its a difficult one to figure out. You will always have a weakness, as it should be.. but i don't understand why scumming peasants has to kill so many troops.
I hit Z earlier.. he had 2.8 million Basilisks.
I scummed him almost to death (not even, he still had 6000 or so peasants a pop) and he was down to 1.2 milion.

basically 300 turns and i got rid of 60% of his defense while GAINING money. I don't see why i wouldnt do this every time.

I understand i could have killed him with scum.. easily.. but why do it when its really just TOO easy to get his land if i scum him first.

This is only a big issue at massive sizes. I can scum someone with 10mil acres a LOT before they die. And kill a LOT of troops.

At 50k acres, you can't do it as efficently.

Do i have any ideas.. not really.. i like the troops as they are. more strategy. If i am dwarven i'm a defensive monster... but i have no sorc troops. Makes it difficult to break some kingdoms. Makes you think and use race to your advantage.


Maybe just change the% you kill while scumming...
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby Kaz » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:15 pm

The troopcap value that you had in Unity will be a part of the V2 codebase. I'll have a look how easily it can be added to massacre v1
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby Zeblamar » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:17 pm

I agree with Mickal don't change the race stats. Thats what makes things fun. Just lower the % of troops that leave when your peasants get killed.

I'm no math wiz but looking at the numbers and taking a good guess I would say very roughly that around 5% of my T3 leave when some one kills my peasants. Now thats not much if you have a small kingdom, but when you have a couple million T3 you loose a lot. He did some CSing and had me down to rough guess 2.4mil T3 from around 2.8mill, I was loosing over 94k of them when he started killing peasants. Now if the % was to get lowered to around 2 or 3% you would still loose troops but you wouldn't become open for war

That way it wouldn't effect any thing when trying to scum kill some one, and no change would be needed to troop stats.

I disagree with the "our fault for not building" part. After a certain size kingdom, it's nearly impossible to build between wars. It actually becomes almost impossible to even build between war hits, due to the mass amount of land taken. And the turns needed becomes insane, even with Massacre's huge turn buckets.

We'll be implementing a change to fix this shortly.


Thats cool. Will mean I don't have to downsize open land to build. Because as you said once you hit a certain size its impossible to build.
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby Mickal Redwater » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:32 pm

Oh and to agree with MoP.

To grab a % of temples while attacking would be spectacular!
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby owly » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:36 pm

Mickal Redwater wrote:To grab a % of temples while attacking would be spectacular!


That would be great......
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby Nagash » Thu Oct 29, 2009 6:42 am

I agree on the taking more buildings. See it as conquered cities or something.

Like Kaz, I am against the normalising of troops. It takes away the strategic aspect of the different races.

Massacre is fun so far, but some more standard builds/saves would help. I would like to play with a goblin realm, but cannot be arsed to get a properly built save up for the time being. The three existing saves suck bollocks, so that doesn't help. Some simple, but effective public saves (like the 'droben war' ones we currently have) would be great.
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby Kaz » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:33 pm

Nagash,

Those public saves are the combined public AND private saves from the duration of Massacre at Canon.

When we move to the new portal I'll make the private saves public, hopefuly you'll get a better goblin option

If there are still no good Goblin saves then hopefully some people will make some.
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby Shredman » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:25 pm

scum D needs to be dropped by atleast 50% vs Graid .... its a worthless attack as it is, you should be able to max correct troops and graid a 10 mil dom with a 5 mil dom, you cant, but you can max troops and mob the guy.... like i say its a worthless attack atm , and at one time was a big part of the game , esp when hitting doms much bigger than you....


another thing is that forts are kinda worthless, they cost so much to support and 12k can easily be CSed down with little to no effort, CS should be weakend , Graid should be stronger ....

make ppl use sorcery to take out big time forts , all this loops together, Graid to get rid of scum , burn temples and use sorcery to get rid of forts, makes use more tactics like the old days....
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby Archangel » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:44 pm

Shredman wrote:scum D needs to be dropped by atleast 50% vs Graid .... its a worthless attack as it is, you should be able to max correct troops and graid a 10 mil dom with a 5 mil dom, you cant, but you can max troops and mob the guy.... like i say its a worthless attack atm , and at one time was a big part of the game , esp when hitting doms much bigger than you....


Inefficient does not meant worthless. And while I'll certainly examine the numbers and run some tests, let's flip your statement around. You make the assertion that a 5 mill NW kingdom should be able to break a 10 mill NW kingdom, but it's broken because while you can mob it down, you can't GR it down. Perhaps instead the truth is that a 5 million NW kingdom shouldn't be able to take down a (well fortified) 10 mill NW kingdom?

I'm personally of the opinion that war offense is a bit strong across the board, but more testing is going to go into determining if that's true.

another thing is that forts are kinda worthless, they cost so much to support and 12k can easily be CSed down with little to no effort, CS should be weakend , Graid should be stronger ....


See my previous statement about war offense perhaps being too strong, as opposed to ItemX being too weak. In this case, I actually don't think there's a problem with forts used properly.

make ppl use sorcery to take out big time forts , all this loops together, Graid to get rid of scum , burn temples and use sorcery to get rid of forts, makes use more tactics like the old days....


I do more or less agree with this statement. There should be more to killing a kingdom then simply overpowering them (while being significantly smaller then them!). Exploiting a weakness in their kingdom is one thing, being unstoppable with certain attacks is another. I'm not sure that killing a kingdom needs to a "one man guild war", but hey, that's the sort of things this thread is here for discussing.
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby Mickal Redwater » Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:30 pm

At the moment there is no way to make a decently hard to break kingdom.

This is not just because of sorc, because when i had the big kingdom, 20k acres, no one really did a lot of damage with sorc. i had 75k temples, with enough tunrs you can brute your way through it maybe.. but boy would it be a lot of turns.

Its war right now thats the most powerful.
Sorc troops + CSes can get you in a kingdom with twice your acres.
Throw in being able to scum down some troops no problem.


Do i think this is wrong... not entirely, but if anything could use tweaking i'd suggest war functions. If you leave yourself vunerable to scum and sorc, your fault.. but if i had a 15million acre kingdom with 6mil acres used with scum and 90k temples.... my 9 million acres worth of defense should protect me from a 3mil kingdom.

at this moment i don't think it really will. If they have time/turns to CS me down.


BUT i don't want to see monster unbeatable kingdoms! I don't think there is a huge problem with that.

As for forts.. they are useless, i downsize them usually and never build them.
Certain races have better forts.. but really... 1 fort is about as much as 1 defensive T4 (like a firebeard). But costs more usually and you can't downsize when you want to build. Maybe they could be stronger. Big kingdoms can't get enough that it matters.

I can buy 1million firebeards on my kingdom... i could never build enough forts to equal that. In the big picture they are insignificant.
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby Kaz » Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:36 pm

Shredman wrote:scum D needs to be dropped by atleast 50% vs Graid .... its a worthless attack as it is, you should be able to max correct troops and graid a 10 mil dom with a 5 mil dom, you cant, but you can max troops and mob the guy.... like i say its a worthless attack atm , and at one time was a big part of the game , esp when hitting doms much bigger than you....


Scum GR defense was implimented for Unity. People with the scum races had a major weakness in defending against GR, so scum defences were raised across the board. I'll take another look and maybe reduce it a little bit.

On a related note, if I am going to consider changing scum GR defenses, I can at the same time change cost. When we increased scum prices there was a lot of people that didn't like the idea. Is that still the case, or are you now used to the more expensive scum?

another thing is that forts are kinda worthless, they cost so much to support and 12k can easily be CSed down with little to no effort, CS should be weakend , Graid should be stronger ....

make ppl use sorcery to take out big time forts , all this loops together, Graid to get rid of scum , burn temples and use sorcery to get rid of forts, makes use more tactics like the old days....


Forts are actually pretty good value. I'm not sure why people dont use them more. Forts have a defensive modifier to their total defence of x2, and are equal to the best defensive value for money of defensive troops (without that modifier). In some races (eg Vampire) forts are actually their best defence.

However, I see where you are coming from with the CS, having CS not destroy any forts at all is another easy to tweak V1 code change.
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Re: The Good, The Bad, The Ugly

Postby Kaz » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:51 pm

Infact, as posted in the Game Changes thread:

You will no longer take or destroy forts when performing a controlled strike, unless you are an Elemental.

They will - as before - still count in the defensive total of your target, however.
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