Downhitting - Bloodbath

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Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby The Stig » Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:31 pm

It is quiet in here, so let us liven it up a bit. Do you down hit?
Last edited by The Stig on Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Downhitting

Postby Kaz » Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:27 am

Assume this question is related to Bloodbath?? Hitting down in conquest is pretty hard unless you've climbed to the top and claimed a load of bounty turns.

This is the first age when down hitting has really been possible. It'll be interesting to know if the experiment of turning off the downhit code was worth it or not.
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby The Stig » Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:51 am

In Bloodbath, rather than other games, hitting NPCs is far more important. This is from my personal experience. Now, without the down hit coding in place, we can take hits on NPCs that are below our land value/networth or whatever value it was using. There had been times when I would hit 3 and out and then go to declare war and be told that it was impossible now.

Also, edit made to subject of thread to help identify it to anyone trolling the forums.
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby Jokingjoe » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:48 am

I get downhit just about every other day..I must say, I'm not pleased about the new code, Kaz. Sitting around 20k and 3 kingdoms all bigger, one nearly double my size jump me...and it's becoming regular practice.
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby Kaz » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:58 pm

It's a test which will probably end up being undone. People have occasionally moaned about the downhit code, I want to see if people moan more about the lack of it.
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby Jokingjoe » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:17 pm

Well, let me be the first to moan ;)
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby Leif » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:16 am

How did the previous down-hit code work? This is my first age back and I am struggling with finding appropriate targets, even with this newfangled "NPC" thing ya'll got going.
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby Kaz » Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:57 am

It was more of a down-declare code. You could freely attack any kingdom you like, but there were limitations on declaring war.

The basic check was
- Does the target have at least 90% of your land total?
- If Yes, stop checks and declare. If No, Does the target have more networth than you?
- If Yes, stop checks and declare. If No, Has the target recently attacked you or your allies?
- If Yes, stop checks and declare. If No, you can't declare
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby Leif » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:22 am

I get it :D

As for the concept of a down hit and having a preventitive code...

I can see both arguments for and against the code.

People could argue the right to make war declarations however they so chose, as this is a war game, and war is not always based on "fair" or "even" but about tactical choices. The basis of the story is the idea that these wars are based on a faith not a networth, and that what is good for the faith is good, period. Effective strategy is not the same as strategy based on internally developed ethics.

Flipside, I have always felt obligated to follow within a sense of "fair" play personally. I felt there was a sense of developing ethics within the social structure of the game's community several years ago. There were always those who disagreed, and were totally within their rights to do so. That being said, there was also enough active players and community size at the time frame I am thinking of that I think a certain amount of social regulation which naturally translated into in-game regulation was able to occur. If one guild of significant size smashed the poop out of smaller clearly disadvantaged guild, chances were that actions were taken to address that behaviour by the community both on the boards and in game.

I have only been poking around for a couple of weeks here recently, but it appears that the community and active player base is significantly smaller, and it is probably much less capable internal social and in-game control based on community will and game action. For this reason I can see why coding the ethic into the game makes sense at this time.

I think though, if you are also considering future development and game continuation... there is another issue to consider. Perhaps there should also be discussion or consideration of the idea that our choices in how to regulate the game will influence game population retention, new player development, and community culture.
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby Jokingjoe » Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:48 am

I certainly don't have a problem with coding it so the NPCs can be downhit at a whim--but new or returning players won't last very long getting smashed by kingdoms twice their size from the onset.

I realize I'm in a tough spot, being the only active Angie in Bloodbath, but I've been playing the game and I'll work the system. When I realized how the new code change worked, I decided to test it for myself and had my 15k kingdom declare on a 5k kingdom. I quickly killed that player and he hasn't returned. That's what I've always been worried about with no downhit protection.
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby Kaz » Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:07 pm

Faile, while I agree that there is an argument for the realism effect i.e. wars are based on faith not networth, Joe's pointer about attacking 15k vs 5k, killing the player and that player not returning is far more the 'norm'. Just look through the Bloodbath UBWars intel. The early wars were uphits while defenders were still unforted, but as soon as the forting starts, most hits are down in one way or another.

While some might post to say they always go for challenging wars, but the unfortunate simple truth from experimentation, is that if some form of downhit is possible, most people chose down over up and spin some sort of reason to make it `sound` fair if asked. We've become remarkably good at spinning the truth over the years.

Social regulation can only happen if there are players big enough to regulate things and at the moment this is not the case.

Perhaps there should also be discussion or consideration of the idea that our choices in how to regulate the game will influence game population retention, new player development, and community culture.


I've tried to achieve that for years. Basically it seems that while some parts of the playerbase realise what new players mean to us, other don't really care as long as they get some easy land. Hence what I'm trying to do is create a game where being smashed down isn't as bad as in some other games. Hence restore etc.
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby Leif » Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:37 am

Personally I fully agree with the code. It seems to be well thought out and fair. I have always been on the side which vaules player base growth and retention. More people makes the game more fun, more active, and more communal.

I am struggling with down hits currently, simply because the top of the scrolls are log-jammed Leto. I can sit and wait to see if someone can get their realms up close enough that it's not an utter down hit, but there's lots of other kingdoms in the same boat so at the same time if I wait too long someone else will always be there to snap up the opportunity. Great for the faith, difficult for the individual player. I'm sure its not exactly fun to be Barnie or Angie right now :P
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby Jokingjoe » Fri Jun 21, 2013 1:06 pm

The barnies come and clean up every time the other Leto hits me. I'm thinking your Thig/Mear. I could catch up to you in a matter or days, but whichever of them I kill, the other turns and knocks me down. If I ignore them, they both attack me...I guess I am in line for the Grand Defender in multiple games this age.
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby Leif » Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:30 am

That's pretty brutal :s I am trying to keep an eye on declarations and not entirely whomp someone who just finished a war, give them a chance to build etc. Respect to you for standing tall haha
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby Jokingjoe » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:06 pm

hah, yeah..not much tall standing here.
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby Jokingjoe » Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:41 pm

Here's my lovely down hits for the day..this guy is hitting me on average every 2nd day. If the previous code had been in place, he'd never be able to declare war on me :(

First honorable attack:
22nd Jun 2013 - 18:10UTC 50006 1,357,616 43,548 100% 10005 975,184 28,149 99%
22nd Jun 2013 - 20:02UTC 50006 1,475,601 43,548 100% 10005 880,556 28,149 90%
22nd Jun 2013 - 20:06UTC START OF WAR DETECTED
22nd Jun 2013 - 20:06UTC 50006 1,568,100 43,553 100% 10005 850,786 28,148 90%
23rd Jun 2013 - 00:18UTC 50006 1,755,403 66,066 77% 10005 147,716 5,661 98%

Second honorable attack:
22nd Jun 2013 - 15:58UTC 50007 1,719,646 50,422 96% 10004 725,246 22,875 99%
22nd Jun 2013 - 18:10UTC 50007 1,719,646 50,422 96% 10004 725,246 22,875 99%
22nd Jun 2013 - 20:02UTC START OF WAR DETECTED
22nd Jun 2013 - 20:02UTC 50007 1,742,867 50,424 96% 10004 652,725 22,873 99%
22nd Jun 2013 - 20:06UTC 50007 1,788,383 67,426 82% 10004 193,807 5,871 98%
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby Leif » Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:49 am

I would like to see the code come back into effect next age. I think it would mean a lot especially to such a high turn rate game. I also think it would force some patience at the top of the scrolls. I want to be able to be patient, but it will cost me my position individually to play fair because several others just below me will take advantage, regularily.

I've just had an active player scribe me telling me if I wanted to make an attack now was my chance, attempting to coordinate the following attack:

"From Prince HPV of (50006)
2013-06-24 20:47:42
...your turn. You want to take out 10004 and 10005 this time? He tried scouting me earlier this afternoon."

This is what he is proposing:

1x 2-3mil kingdom
vs
2x 500k-1mil kingdoms

And the sad truth is when I refuse (which I did, as well as lectured about in game ethics) they will strike, as an interfaith quad.

Here is what the quad will look like when they strike at some point today or tomorrow, vs. his suggested targets:

2x 1.5mil-2.5mil kingdoms & 2x 500k-1mil kingdoms
vs
2x 500k-1mil kingdoms

edited to remove some the the tactical info. Might be a downhit, but that was a bit too much info to post on the boards. Especially as it relates to future plans. Posting stats after the fact is a little different ~Kaz
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby Jokingjoe » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:23 pm

great..so I get to look forward the Mr Antiobiotic man coming to visit..
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby Jokingjoe » Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:30 pm

and Kaz, I can understand you worrying about tactics..I was fortunate enough to log in as he was starting his attacks..I was able to blunt a few of them be quickly resetting ambushes, but in the end, he was so much bigger than me that he was able to just push right through the ambush.

As much as I've enjoyed the Bloodbath game in the past, it may be about time hang my hat up from this version.
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Re: Downhitting - Bloodbath

Postby The Stig » Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:01 pm

We don't need a downhit code in Bloodbath. It is kind of how the game was designed to be played. You get like tons of turns, restore helps too.
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