gaining built land via war: game broken?

[bundesbank]

i think we need to decrease the amount of built land gained via war - if not in the other games, then at least in this one.

some of you may have seen the scrolls within the last 24 hours. my king was sitting at 95k acres with 55k open. my brt was 10.

in part because he would have been a huge threat if i had to DSed land down to achieve a reasonably brt and tried to build from there (he was at like 80%+ built, i would have been around 60% - he could have easily hit me with his next turnset), but also because i wanted to see whether this "strategy" would work or not, i dsed 50k of my open land and "uphit" ashin (44k vs. 47k). i use the term "uphit" loosely because up until the moment i DSed by 50k, i was sitting on double his amount of land, so in reality i had a significant strategic advantage: i could attack on my terms at any given moment, the game code restrictions on declaring war notwithstanding, but if he had uphit me, he would have been grinding against an enemy twice his size.

i gained approx 10.5k built acres and finished my attack at 84k total land. while i'm down 11k land, it would have taken me approximately 3 turnsets to build (when you factor in dsing 11k land, probably ending up at 12 brt, and 36-odd turns for reforting), and i have removed a potential threat for 24 hours (he will also be smaller once he restores his kingdoms).

[Jokingjoe]

Um...I don't see the problem.

By sacrificing that much land, you reduced your troop cap by quite a bit. While the 300 turns of the Bloodbath game make any defense difficult at best, Kaz has on multiple occasions stated there's no way to defend against all forms of attack. Had Ashin been fully defended war, he would have been difficult for you to break. However, the current flare of the game is to burn/sorc kill, and ask questions later making the quick sorc kill the standard of attack.

It all depends on how you want to play ( and die).

[bundesbank]

here's the problem: sitting on 95k land, i had approximately double his troop cap. i easily have scum superiority, so i can scout, loot unseen, burn unseen - whatever - prior to war. i could judge his fort every day to determine whether i could break him straight up with war. on the one day where he chooses to fort more scum to try to catch someone looting him, i can attack him.

and if at any time he actually tried to hit me, he'd have been hitting a kingdom 2x his size.

now i didn't do this because it wasn't necessary, but i additionally had the option of prepping - loot, burn, etc. - with guaranteed scum superiority, then shifting immediately to a small enough kd size that enables me to declare war on him.

those are big strategic and tactical advantages within the context of gaining 10.5k built land in a strike.

[Jokingjoe]

Which is why you shouldn't feel the need to downhit. Sit on your mountain and let the challengers come to you.

[bundesbank]

i guess i should explain that my background is economics. we think in terms of incentives. previously, there were a lot of downsides to running massive landfarms. now there are fewer.

i'm not saying this is a tactic that i particularly want to make use of, but why wouldn't others if the incentive is there?

of course, if you keep doing this over and over again, you make more enemies and there's the possibility that they'll all start to gang up on you. i went into the war with ashin 24 hours after hitting knight taran, so it's very possible they'll both come after me simultaneously i did want to test it out, though, because i hadn't done the calculations yet about what percentage of captured land is built.

[Jokingjoe]

It's bloodbath...who cares? People are supposed to die with regularity or you're doing something wrong.

[Kaz]

When I saw this thread, I initially thought that I'd not changed anything with regards to the amount of buildings that get taken. However on closer inspection, it seems that I actually did make a change, but it was back in 2007 when we rolled out Unity back at Evernight. With exception of Massacre (which remained at old values), everything rolled out (or upgraded) after the Unity roll out, had new values, and these values got incorporated into the code when we moved here.

Originally you would retain 8% of the Guildhalls, Hovels, Barracks and Quarries that you destroyed, along with 30% of the total forts (as green forts). However Unity added temples into the mix of buildings taken (slightly increasing the total built land take), and also increased everything from 8% to the 30% value that forts had been using.

I did some tests, and using the old values (but giving temples too), taking 840 acres from a fully built 12,000 acre kingdom with an average built strategy, would have given you 80 built acres and 760 open acres. Taking the same 840 acres from the same fully built 12k kingdom as the settings are currently, would give you 300 built acres and 540 open acres. That's an increase from 9.5% built to 35.7% built.

Now this is a best case scenario, as the system only takes buildings based on the number of buildings you destroy, and you don't start destroying buildings until all the open land is gone, but even so, I think it's safe to say it was a pretty significant increase back then. I'm surprised it's taken you till now to notice it though Bundes, as you were still around when Unity was rolled out, and when the same settings would have been rolled into Solo and Turmoil.

I could add a new setting option though, enable me to select between "Temples On/Off" and buildings "Low/Medium/High". Then we could set different effects in different games. This setting promotes more frequent war and larger kingdoms, but it's also probably a little easier to play at higher levels.

[bundesbank]

i don't know... was i around for unity?

i never played solo or turmoil near the end (actually, i pretty much never played solo in general). i became very lazy... turmoil could be quite time-consuming, and i was getting burnt out from the game from running chats with wtfpwnd/weec, even if steven was running quite a bit of them when wtfpwnd was resurrected, weec broken into 4 guilds (in that strange age where guilds were capped at 8 players), etc.

i haven't really played since then.

it was definitely obvious when i started warring people in this incarnation of monarch/evernight!

[Kaz]

As far as I recall WeeC were only ever a guild in Valid, so you might have been gone before Unity started (but I might be wrong). I could have sworn you were around longer than 2007 though.

Unity was the guilded game I put together when Souldemon and Sunblade decided to close Guilds, Valid and Covenant and create a single guilded game. Up to that point I was a minor staff member, and had been loath to play with the live game code (hence making Massacre) but felt like I had to quickly put together a new guilded game so that the new version would have some new features, rather than being the same thing again.

If prior to you being here, you played the game with my Ulimabase DB built directly into the guilded game (rather than being stand-alone), then you must have played Unity.

[edit] Based on the fact WeeC finished the first age of Unity at the top of the ranks, I was clearly wrong about them not being a Unity guild lol
http://www.evernight.com/hof/index.php?hofid=204

[Tara]

ohhkay hi guys! =)

i don't know... was i around for unity?

I dunnoooo *PEEEEEERS closely* were yooou? ..... but Yay! you're old enough ta have-forgotten-more-than-you-know, so weeza giveza pass on that one ;>

...i dsed 50k of my open land and "uphit" ashin (44k vs. 47k). i use the term "uphit" loosely because up until the moment i DSed by 50k, i was sitting on double his amount of land, so in reality i had a significant strategic advantage: i could attack on my terms at any given moment...

- careful now, I also took the hard road of learning in the land'a Bloodbath, an'a lo an' behold, I understood: my kdms can be killed at any time, by anyone.

...but if he had uphit me, he would have been grinding against an enemy twice his size.

Prolly not, prolly would'a just sorc or scum killed yer kdm. The heathen on dis part de isle will just as soon sorc kill yas than look at yas, an' it works!

Even as a goblin-runner I've (re!)-learned this: sorcery. is. awesome! For this game especially.

Just ask Seska That one actually hopes for less acres. I dunno why, it's a theory an' I've seen first hand it fookin works lol Personally I blame that damn bitchAngiegoddess - always. It's all her fault.

Had Ashin been fully defended war, he would have been difficult for you to break.

Well since vamps have THE BEST FORTS in the game, ok, but Ashin didn't have too many forts, not by Bloodbath standards anyway. - Not when my kdms can get smoked by someone with nothin. ;p

Long story short - bundes, if anything, I'd say it's a war game. And ... oh nevermind just that, war game =) and off I go!


Wait wait, one more thing =) ... If I were worried about anything, I'd say watch the TURN bounty for bloodbath .. built-acres are...something you should a'ready have, ya damn heathen! ;>

I mean really, a 1/2-built king? - that's just askin for a dead notice. Welcome baaack!

[bundesbank]

http://www.evernight.com/hof/index.php?hofid=205 - can't find my kingdom there. i know i was not around for weec's final age.

the latest i can find a kingdom that obviously belongs to me is http://www.evernight.com/hof/index.php?hofid=173 / http://www.evernight.com/hof/index.php?hofid=172

it's possible that HDug(10006) belonged to me here: http://www.evernight.com/hof/index.php?hofid=190 / http://www.evernight.com/hof/index.php?hofid=189

i think he had retired by then and i wanted to keep his name going.

[edit]anyway, i'm kind of rushed tonight, but i do want to respond to the strategic implications your raised in your 1st post.

i need to give them some thought, though, and i want to give it the proper time and attention before i respond.

so... hopefully tomorrow night!

[bundesbank]

so i just wrote a massive post and it was all deleted because i got logged out.

tl:dr lower the % built in guilds and domination, leave it in place for bloodbath.

if you want to know why, pm me so that i can give you my coordinates for gchat. i'm not going to spend another hour re-writing everything lol

[Jokingjoe]

invariably, I'll play the game however the code works. I would ask, though, that formula used to calculate captured building be considered in combination with the formula for bonus buildings working off the land bounty. It seems that, given average amounts of turn expenditures, they should come out fairly even in the end, all things being equal.

So, if you use X turns to destroy a 10k 100% built kingdom with war, you receive Y acres of built land..

If you use Z turns to destroy a 10k 100% built kingdom with sorc/scum, you should also recieve Y built land off the bounty if selected where Y is affected as Z approaches X. (Obviously, war killing a kingdom costs a lot more turns in an idea setup, but not always if you're in a blind nuke/weaker position.)

[Seska Dragonslayer]

I like the capture rate for bloodbath at least. Its pretty violent in guilds though, I must say lol

[Kaz]

The next codebase will have the ability to set the level on a per-game basis as one of three options: old skool (low) 8%, current (high) 30%, or medium 19%

We'll drop guilds and domination to medium and see how it turns out for an age, and leave conquest and bloodbath on high

[Seska Dragonslayer]

It is nice in Bb and conquest - who needs to build when you can wreck a few people and get buff that way? The oil hit-ds-hit etc is fun stuff.