Answers to a few questions regarding sorcery

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Answers to a few questions regarding sorcery

Postby Kaz » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:13 pm

Carlos Danger wrote:Hi Kaz,

I have a few questions about sorcery I was wondering if you could help me with. I don't expect you to give me exact info but I am just trying to understand it better. We have seen some things that we think are weird but maybe its just not having all the info. Were planning on doing some testing to get a better idea too so if you don't have time or would prefer not to that's perfectly okay. No rush if you are going to answer, I know your busy.

My questions are does the difference in sorc between races help determine defensively how strong you are against sorc or is that for offense only? To elaborate with an example while my sidhe has a sorc strength of 5 and my goblin target is a 2 are the defensively a 2 or is defense the same among all the races?

Second does the size of the kingdom effect the sorcing ability? I wish I had the examples but there were times last age when we were attacking NIR, and even though we knew our kingdoms has more temples(and we were attacking with Sidhes and Faes and Elementals) it seemed the sorc attacks were not as strong is they could be. There kingdoms were all much larger then ours so we thought perhaps code had been put in to prevent smaller kingdoms from doing to much sorc damage.

Do the temples from summon temples have an effectiveness rate compared to built temples? I would assume so but wasn't sure. Sometimes they seem to help and other times they don't seem to be doing much, but we haven't tested to much yet to be sure.


QUESTION 1

When calculating sorcery, the defending races skill at sorcery doesn't really come into play.

The calculations use a value called 'resistance' which is mostly based on the number of temples on the target kingdom. The resistance value is not 'totally' based on enemy temples, there is also a small modifier based on the percentage of land the enemy has built as temples, but that modifier is minor.

Resistance is compared to 'strength' which is calculated using the attacking kingdom's temples and temples ratio. There is a built in advantage to the attacker which I'm not sure why it's there, I'm going to look back through historic source code to see if it was added at some point in error.

Basically, if the attacker and defender both have 5000 acres with 1000 temples, the attacker will have a strength of 420 and the defender will only have a strength of 220. This is already in the minimal success area, and it would only take a reduction of between 40 and 50 of the targets temples to reach the next level of success. I definitely need to look into that.

Anyway, success or failure is largely irrelevant of racial stuff, it pretty much just comes down to comparative temple count. It's the racial differences that effect how much damage is done by the spell, and that's based on offensive stats only.

QUESTION 2

Temple count is the primary method of calculating the level of success for a sorcery spell not land. If a kingdom with 30k acres and 3k temples cast against a kingdom with 60k acres and 2k temples it would be 1210 vs 403.3333. That's still only enough for the 'good fight' level though.

QUESTION 3

Summoned temples are calculated in the strength and resistance calculations as if they were real temples.
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Re: Answers to a few questions regarding sorcery

Postby Kaz » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:23 pm

To report on what I said I'd check. The imbalance between the calculation formulas for `strength` and `resistance` go back to the code-base that was used by Canon prior to me joining the development team.

The imbalance also existed in the original canon `alpha` code-base in a pretty extreme way (and probably monarchy before). Looks like equal kingdoms would have been a reasonable level of success for the attacker.

It might be that it makes it harder to predict what effect sorcery will have, but the imbalance seems to have always been there. I could reduce it, but it would equate to a nerf to offensive sorcery.
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Re: Answers to a few questions regarding sorcery

Postby Jokingjoe » Fri Nov 08, 2013 6:53 pm

I doubt a nerf is needed to sorc. Sorc attacks are usually reserved for the smaller kingdom as larger kingdoms will just beat smaller opponents into a pulp.
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Re: Answers to a few questions regarding sorcery

Postby Kaz » Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:15 pm

I'm not going to nerf something that's always been like that. I just thought it might have been something I introduced accidentally. As it wasn't and we've evidentially managed to survive with it set like that for at least 12 years, it can stay.
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Re: Answers to a few questions regarding sorcery

Postby Nymphsong » Sat Nov 30, 2013 10:16 am

Kaz,

Maybe I can shed some light on the imbalance of the sorcery. Back in late 97' when I first started playing...Forts were much stronger than anything I have seen since. I would see warrior kingdoms allied with one another in a quad all have 2500 forts on 18k land. Nothing could bust through them. I believe the sorcery edge was provided to help improve Elven realms and equalize the playing field so to speak. I remember entire war chats with 40 people showing up...to take down 8-10 realms...because the killing of a realm was so intensive. One to scum temples/sab alliances...one to sorc forts and structures....one to break the realms actual non-fort defense... and another realm to clean up. 4x1 to take out one realm.

Giving the Sorcerer the immediate advantage helped to neutralize the power of the forts. I might be completely off on this, but I seem to remember several discussion threads from back in the day stating as such and arguing the overpowered forts. Bottom line, helped the little guy and sorcerer realms remain relevant.

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Re: Answers to a few questions regarding sorcery

Postby Kaz » Sat Nov 30, 2013 1:04 pm

Nymph, it's good to see you back, you may well be right. But even so, it would have made more sense to alter the bonus variables specifically regarding fort descruction or fort strength, than calculate essentially the same thing in two different ways. That way, when you change bonus variables in the future, you know it'll have the same effect throughout, rather than a boosted effect that wasn't anticipated.

Yes, it would have an effect of making it easier for a kingdom to reduce forts via sorc, but it also has the effect of making it easier for a kingdom to destroy all other buildings and to kill by sorc too. As there was subsequently additional nerfs to 'over powered forts' and then nerfs to 'overpowered sorcery', this imbalance could well have been the cause of people calling for nerfs.

Eventually I 'will' fix it, simply so that sorcery works the same way as every other method of attack giving the benefit of the doubt to the defender when kingdoms are equal. I might boost additional sorcery bonuses at the same time in order to essentially not introduce a nerf, but it's more about making things a little more predictable, and making sorcery work the same as war and scum (at a base level).

But as we've lived with it for 15 years, it can wait a bit longer.
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Re: Answers to a few questions regarding sorcery

Postby Nymphsong » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:30 pm

Since we are on the topic of sorcery...and maybe I missed it in the race guidelines...

Does race matter in the effectiveness of a Fog Spell? Additionally, what is the ratio if you are willing to share that a Fog will nullify an adversarial activity? 1:100? 1:10 etc. Just looking for any light you can shed on this one...

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Re: Answers to a few questions regarding sorcery

Postby Kaz » Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:11 am

Temple and racial strengths make no difference in fog (as it stands). In all cases, once fog is cast it will last 24 hours and no further checks (e.g. to make sure the kingdom still has fog casting ability) are made.

The chances of fog preventing an attack or non-scout scum attack are basically 2 in 10 (1 in 5).
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Re: Answers to a few questions regarding sorcery

Postby Jokingjoe » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:28 pm

And when you get those 3 or 4 fogs in a row, it's just really bad luck :)
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Re: Answers to a few questions regarding sorcery

Postby Kaz » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:30 am

I thought I'd add another useful bit of sorcery related info

Calming Chant / Inspire DevotionAlways available
Walking Damned / Crypt Walkers / Awakened Spirits / Summon CirclesRequires 2% of land as temples
Shattering Calm / Rousing Wind / Foul LightRequires 3% of land as temples
Cyclone Spill / Spiked Wall / Wild DesignRequires 6% of land as temples
Solid Darkness / Creeping Murk / Blazing NoiseRequires 8% of land as temples
Hurricane / Lightning Lance / Banshee DelugeRequires 12% of land as temples
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Re: Answers to a few questions regarding sorcery

Postby Kaz » Wed Feb 12, 2014 5:12 pm

Elan Generation

0 temple = 0 elan per turn
1 temple = 1 elan per turn
201 temple = 2 elan per turn (sidhe and vampire) = ceil(Temples * 0.005)
334 temple = 2 elan per turn (other races) = ceil(Temples * 0.003)
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Re: [NPAC Elite] Answers to a few questions regarding sorcer

Postby bundesbank » Sat Mar 22, 2014 7:00 pm

howdy folks! here's some information on how many turns it CURRENTLY takes to conduct a sorc kill. note that the kingdom sizes are different - i was a bit lazy in my testing (i've honestly never tested anything in my life before, so given that i did it at all is kind of surprising ;)). nevertheless, it provides you a rough guide.

sidhe (5/5 sorc)
total turns required: 144
backlash: 6
total turns required excluding backlash: 132

target kingdom
peasants: 115,156
land: 31,079
hovels: 4,469

first sorc: Your Foul Light's killed 9212 heathens in echo. They are a people of weak allegiance, we overcame them with ease.
last sorc: Your Foul Light's killed 41 heathens in echo. They are a people of weak allegiance, we overcame them with ease.

vamp (4/5 sorc)
total turns required: 158
backlash: 2
total turns required excluding backlash: 154

target kingdom
peasants: 125,849
land: 33,226
hovels: 4,353

first sorc: Your Foul Light's killed 8809 heathens in testing stuff. They are a people of weak allegiance, we overcame them with ease.
10th sorc: Your Foul Light's killed 4584 heathens in testing stuff. They are a people of weak allegiance, we overcame them with ease.
75th sorc (150 turns used): Your Foul Light's killed 47 heathens in testing stuff. They are a people of weak allegiance, we overcame them with ease.
final sorc: Your Foul Light's killed 35 heathens in testing stuff. They are a people of weak allegiance, we overcame them with ease.

human (3/5 sorc)
total turns required: 196
backlash: 6
total turns required excluding backlash: 184

target kingdom
peasants: 138,781
land: 45,556
hovels: 1,651

first sorc: Your Foul Light's killed 8326 heathens in bundesbank. They are a people of weak allegiance, we overcame them with ease.
10th sorc: Your Foul Light's killed 4771 heathens in bundesbank. They are a people of weak allegiance, we overcame them with ease.
50th sorc (100 turns used): Your Foul Light's killed 480 heathens in bundesbank. They are a people of weak allegiance, we overcame them with ease.
last sorc: Your Foul Light's killed 30 heathens in bundesbank. They are a people of weak allegiance, we overcame them with ease.

droben (2/5 sorc)
total turns required: 228
backlash: 6
total turns required excluding backlash: 216

target kingdom
peasants: 119,647
land: 34,134
hovels: 3,475

first sorc: Your Foul Light's killed 5982 heathens in testing stuff. They are a people of weak allegiance, we overcame them with ease.
10th sorc: Your Foul Light's killed 3770 heathens in testing stuff. They are a people of weak allegiance, we overcame them with ease.
50th sorc (100 turns used): Your Foul Light's killed 537 heathens in testing stuff. They are a people of weak allegiance, we overcame them with ease.
last sorc: Your Foul Light's killed 25 heathens in testing stuff. They are a people of weak allegiance, we overcame them with ease.
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Re: [NPAC Elite] Answers to a few questions regarding sorcer

Postby Kaz » Sat Mar 22, 2014 10:07 pm

To follow up on Bundes' post, here is an approximate standardisation of 100,000 peasants sorc killed with ease (assuming no backlash)

5/5 (132 * 100,000) / 115,156 = 114.63 turns
4/5 (154 * 100,000) / 125,849 = 122.37 turns
3/5 (184 * 100,000) / 138,781 = 132.58 turns
2/5 (216 * 100,000) / 119,647 = 180.53 turns
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